Buffs to dragoon

[Eliadil]

Do you remember the time where every melee dps thread wasn't hijacked by "omg monk is the worst" messages ? Because I sure don't.

I want them to add a new forum category. Monk Arena. Where everybody can try their luck against a fervent monk player in an endless debate about which job is worst.



Anyway, back on topic, so we all basically agree that Dragoon doesn't need much apart the extended timer on Claw&Fang combo and maybe some other small QoL stuff ?

[Renkei]

Yes you hit Invigorate at 600 TP every time, but guess what, Monk used more TP than other jobs so even doing that Monk's TP burn went faster.

Ripping hate off tanks isn't something I mentioned so nice job trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward

Those two metrics didn't exist in Heavensward which is my point, You can't compare metrics that didn't exist at the time. That's an "apples vs oranges" comparison.

Now with the cutting of Piercing and Litany I think it's more of a concern how much damage jobs like BLM/SMN/SAM do compared to jobs that have support Utility. Granted SMN has it and is doing amazing compared to the jobs that do have it.

Piercing Debuff > Monks Crushing Debuff was due to no classes exploiting Crush, Battle Litany is more flexible due to the Nature of Crit scaling OP at time of release, Dragon-Sight is actually pretty minor considering that it's damage output was similar to that of power surge. they are better then MNK Brotherhood But that's a comparison of 3 buffs Versus one, I've thought they should of done something earlier about Monks UTILITY; they thought Crushing Debuff and Dragons-kick INT Down + Trait Mantra Outweighed a buff?


It's important to note that B4B also increased damage output taken by the DRG causing magic damage to turn deadly in some situations to a minor extent for MNK too

you invigorated at 560 to prevent losing 40 TP was mainly due to its original potency being crazy low and DRG had it Traited, MNK managed a slightly lower tp cost, This gave monk a TP advantage in fights that required more mobility time and winding up on weaker targets an advantage to monks damage output, DRG had the disadvantage of having to wind up with heavy thrust and disembowel before receiving full output but monk had the advantage of not requiring it, This didn't show in every fight and often due to Tanks not having Invigorate which Lead to the fights having to have breaks for the tanks to GAIN TP.

Review historical TP Costs.

NODE : #45
"In those days Monk had a negative raid contribution due to forcing tanks into Tank Stance courtesy of it's lack of aggro control"
"Last edited by SpeckledBurd; 09-09-2020 at 04:07 PM. "

Quoting you and what that implies is that it forces tanks into tank stance due to it's lack of AGGRO Control. Implying that tanks MUST go into tank stance in order to compensate for the CE generated by Monks damage output. Nice try though.

MNK and DRG Disparity then was mainly due to the lack of Offensive utility that monk provided; I Don't see how that's relevant now when monks biggest problem is the Clunky Anatman opening it suffers with right now. Heavensward was mostly dominated by BLM/SMN/MCH/BRD, with rarely fights going to melee classes So I'd say there is biggest fish to fry then the feud in-between the two original melee DD's.

OPEN YOUR EYES SHEEPLE! THE MOON IS A LIE! FOR IT HAS TOLD ME SO!

Trying to deny Dragoon has been anything other than strictly better than monk at any point after ARR is laughably ignorant.

Once again every-time i've tried having a constructive conversation with you.
There is no need for you to feel cornered in such a fashion that you have to resort to Mocking/Gas-lighting but okay.

What you prefer they change DRG back to what it was pre-2.45 when DRG was in a less playable state?

2.45 Patch notes Source :

(https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cf56b933b99601)

Besides at least they are willing to look at MNK right now after already giving it a major adjustment.
Meanwhile the community is bashing any other job that needs to be looked at considering DRG is in LAST PLACE out of melee.

Matter of FACT Dragoon right now is barely doing 40 more DPS then DANCER is at higher tiers, and monk is out damaging it by 120.


That's why i find it really hard to believe you guys are serious at all when the evidence suggests otherwise.

FFLOGS Statics Aggregate.
[https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...regate=amount]

[Shurrikhan]

Matter of FACT Dragoon right now is barely doing 40 more DPS then DANCER is at higher tiers, and monk is out damaging it by 120.

Max represents no more than history's best padded run.

99%, 95%, and 90% all tell a very different story.

[Renkei]

Max represents no more than history's best padded run.

99%, 95%, and 90% all tell a very different story.

That's not true because the evidence you point that tells a "very different story" Tells the same exact story i am telling you.

All these are in RDPS

90th.
MNK 17,804.35 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -1421.9
Combined Total : 37,362.02‬

DRG 17,621.66 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -1,666.47
Combined Total : 36,909.79‬
Difference : Monk Wins at 244.57 Advantage.

95th
MNK 18,135.77 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -1,090.48
Combined Total : 37,362.02‬

DRG 17,982.30 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -1,305.83‬
Combined Total : 37,270.43‬
Difference : Monk Wins at 215.35‬ Advantage.


99th

MNK 18,689.27 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -536.98
Combined Total : 37,915.52‬
DRG 18,510.23 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -777.9‬
Combined Total : 37,798.36‬
Difference : Monk Wins at 240.92 Advantage.


Here's some more factual Evidence that is proving that Monks rework will just leave DRG in the dust, as its already in an advantaged position due to its higher minimal parse damage at all percentiles you mentioned.

you keep asserting those assessments but you don't follow through with the data. I've constantly reviewed meta-data thoroughly, The Biggest difference is there are more DRG's then MNK's, It's a population and Frequency issue then a damage issue, Do i want monk to be reworked? YES but only Anatman. They don't deserve an increase in damage output because their Minimum damage advantage DOUBLES the maximum damage advantage that DRG has. Balance wise they are in a great place EXCEPT for Anatman.

Its easier to argue that DRG and MNK need to be brought up to SAM/BLM/SMN levels

[Shurrikhan]

...

At the time of your initial comment, Dragoon was "barely doing 40 dps more than Dancer's" at one and only one level of play, Max. (That is, by the way, no longer true. Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM, while managing far nearer to SAM's damage than SAM manages relative to BLM. It does 293 more dps than Monk, if that actually mattered.)

If split by boss, such was also true only in one fight, Ifrit & Garuda - Max. (Note also that even at Max, Dragoon is ahead of Monk on all but that one fight. That is to say, one fight in particular perhaps unfairly screws over Dragoon, rather than Dragoon lacking for raw power. ...Similarly, in Eden's Gate, that distinction went to Eden Prime, while Dragoon was neck and neck with Monk on all other fights.)

In all other tiers or fights, Dragoon was within 2% of Monk (sometimes even in Dragoon's favor), i.e. a very different story than your "Dragoon is in last place" as if by a mile.

Also,

I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward

Those two metrics didn't exist in Heavensward which is my point, You can't compare metrics that didn't exist at the time. That's an "apples vs oranges" comparison.

rDPS evaluation was already being done in Heavensward. It just wasn't the default setting of fflogs.

[Renkei]

At the time of your initial comment, Dragoon was "barely doing 40 dps more than Dancer's" at one and only one level of play, Max. (That is, by the way, no longer true. Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM, while managing far nearer to SAM's damage than SAM manages relative to BLM. It does 293 more dps than Monk, if that actually mattered.)

If split by boss, such was also true only in one fight, Ifrit & Garuda - Max. (Note also that even at Max, Dragoon is ahead of Monk on all but that one fight. That is to say, one fight in particular perhaps unfairly screws over Dragoon, rather than Dragoon lacking for raw power. ...Similarly, in Eden's Gate, that distinction went to Eden Prime, while Dragoon was neck and neck with Monk on all other fights.)

In all other tiers or fights, Dragoon was within 2% of Monk (sometimes even in Dragoon's favor), i.e. a very different story than your "Dragoon is in last place" as if by a mile.

Also,

rDPS evaluation was already being done in Heavensward. It just wasn't the default setting of fflogs.

I'm convinced that you are willing to spin anything in your favor regardless of evidence. Nothing has changed inbetween the balance of DRG and DNC. It's not behind, everything you said isn't true at all.
Nothing changed in-between the damage output of these jobs. you are comparing MAX damage and not Average.
You have to compare it with Averages.


You argue that it's ONE level of PLAY when you don't understand that it's under absolutely perfect circumstances that players have no control over like high 10% random damage roll CRIT,DH, CRIIT+DH, You cannot use such EXTREMES as a metric for balance because it's an appeal to extremes. You are aware that if you take all these things into account DRG only out damages MNK 1/5 Times.

rDPS wasn't implemented at all into FFlogs until after Heavenward, Analysis had to be done by a log by log basis./
If it was implemented it wasn't accessible with meta-data to the public. but that's a completely different discussion for a different topic.

The 99.999999% Hierarchy right now is

Black Mage 20,147.43
Samurai 19,969.46
Summoner 19,506.29
Red Mage 19,365.43
Ninja 19,343.72
Dragoon 19,288.13
Monk 19,226.25
Dancer 18,844.79
Machinist 18,119.03
Bard 18,061.80

It doesn't justify that MNK beats it but barely loses to DRG in these extremes as these extremes cannot be replicated every pull.


When you factor in MIN and MAX you end up with this.


Black Mage 17,546.47 20,147.43
Samurai 17,493.59 19,969.46
Summoner 17,377.20 19,506.29
Ninja 17,168.77 19,343.72
Red Mage 17,029.49 19,365.43
Monk 16,996.98 19,226.25
Dragoon 16,871.81 19,288.13
Machinist 16,813.84 18,119.03
Bard 16,505.45 18,061.80
Dancer 16,022.85 18,844.79

HARDLY close to your claim of " Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM"

Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM, while managing far nearer to SAM's damage than SAM manages relative to BLM. It does 293 more dps than Monk, if that actually mattered.)
.

Max represents no more than history's best padded run.

99%, 95%, and 90% all tell a very different story.

Not to mention you agree with that, but all those claims just fell apart.

Over and over again your defense is inappropriate generalization instead of concrete proof, I Don't have any titles to defend i just want people to know the truth.

[Shurrikhan]

You argue that it's ONE level of PLAY when you don't understand that it's under absolutely perfect circumstances that players have no control over like high 10% random damage roll CRIT,DH, CRIIT+DH, You cannot use such EXTREMES as a metric for balance because it's an appeal to extremes.

You're the one who pulled that single metric initially. (I presume because all other metrics contradicted your statement.)

I then argued that the Max percentile indicates nothing more than the latest luckiest/most padded run, and directed you to the tiers beneath max where your statement that DRG barely even outperformed Dancer was patently false and more recently to the fact that, sure enough, this week's Max tier has DRG within the top three jobs.

HARDLY close to your claim of " Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM"

Why would I factor in min when specifically discussing max?

I'd already factored in lower tiers when last discussing that your conclusion only held water at Max rank.

My mentioning Max here was merely proof that Max varies wildly and was therefore unreliable, just as I mentioned in my first post.

Don't make me laugh you doctored that image here let me prove it!

Is the second image supposed to be my "doctored" image, or your proof to the contrary? They're identical.

I posted the 2-week period for each fight to show why the 2nd fight so screws over DRG's overall performance, and the 1-Day overall as an image of what I mentioned earlier.
_____________________________________________________________________________
In response to your edit:

You're mistaking consistency for hypocrisy. You made an argument. I showed you one way it didn't work in the previous post (you had argued by an extreme, conflicted across all other tiers) and mentioned a second way it would fall apart (even that highest tier will shift within a week or two). This time, I showed a third flaw in your argument (performance across a raid tier is a sum of its bosses, and a job may perform fine across the majority while still underperforming on the whole due to the one problematic fight) and gave proof of the former post's second (DRG had already gone from 4th worst to 3rd best melee).

The image function does not appear to be working, so I'll merely leave the links as to the given Max I mentioned by way of showing these things change constantly, lest you next call me a liar just because I didn't write out numbers that may or may not have actually ever been on fflogs:
http://prntscr.com/ul1235 (3rd best job overall; 2nd best melee)
https://ibb.co/WzGPZRd (2nd best melee)
http://prntscr.com/ul0yb3 (DRG's problem child fight.)
http://prntscr.com/ul0yyc (2nd best melee)
http://prntscr.com/ul0zio (Ahead of Monk)


Values not among the highest levels will change far less noticeably, so I'll still expect that anyone can look them up the other tiers for themselves.

Don't make me laugh you doctored that image here let me prove it!

Is the second image supposed to be my "doctored" image, or your proof to the contrary? They're identical.

I posted the 2-week period for each fight to show why the 2nd fight so screws over DRG's overall performance, and the 1-Day overall as an image of what I mentioned earlier.

Somehow the "liar!" bit took even less time than I thought. Every picture includes its frames of reference. None are doctored.

[Renkei]

You're the one who pulled that single metric initially. (I presume because all other metrics contradicted your statement.)

I then argued that the Max percentile indicates nothing more than the latest luckiest/most padded run, and directed you to the tiers beneath max where your statement that DRG barely even outperformed Dancer was patently false and more recently to the fact that, sure enough, this week's Max tier has DRG within the top three jobs.

Why would I factor in min when specifically discussing max?

I'd already factored in lower tiers when last discussing that your conclusion only held water at Max rank.

My mentioning Max here was merely proof that Max varies wildly and was therefore unreliable, just as I mentioned in my first post.

No I didnt, i told you RDPS wasn't comparable in heavenward because we have no meta-data. All the Metrics didn't contradict my statement what are you even on about.

Don't make me laugh you doctored that image here let me prove it!







Your LINK http://prntscr.com/ul0l97
Your LINK https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png

1.
1.

MY LINKS
1.
2.

Are we even using the same Logs at this point????????




That last one was a joke i made up btw.

Look i don't doubt there's problems with the designs of the current fights and their accessibility for DRG and MNK because there really is. but you are barking up the wrong tree here. It'd be more productive to figure out how to get these jobs up to flexibility and snuff with the current leading jobs that don't even start to sweat in all the current end-game fights./


The problem is you argue for Max and everyone in that percentile bounce from 97 to max depending on pure sheer luck.

You seem to forget SAM and BLM are peak every-fight, Shouldn't we be on about how SAM and BLM are to Flexible and DRG and MNK lack the same flexibility?

When did IFRIT and Garuda become every fight?????????? DRG only gets third place in that one fight.

*

You're the one who pulled that single metric initially. (I presume because all other metrics contradicted your statement.)

I then argued that the Max percentile indicates nothing more than the latest luckiest/most padded run, and directed you to the tiers beneath max where your statement that DRG barely even outperformed Dancer was patently false and more recently to the fact that, sure enough, this week's Max tier has DRG within the top three jobs.

Why would I factor in min when specifically discussing max?

I'd already factored in lower tiers when last discussing that your conclusion only held water at Max rank.

My mentioning Max here was merely proof that Max varies wildly and was therefore unreliable, just as I mentioned in my first post.



Is the second image supposed to be my "doctored" image, or your proof to the contrary? They're identical.

I posted the 2-week period for each fight to show why the 2nd fight so screws over DRG's overall performance, and the 1-Day overall as an image of what I mentioned earlier.
_____________________________________________________________________________
In response to your edit:

You're mistaking consistency for hypocrisy. You made an argument. I showed you one way it didn't work in the previous post (you had argued by an extreme, conflicted across all other tiers) and mentioned a second way it would fall apart (even that highest tier will shift within a week or two). This time, I showed a third flaw in your argument (performance across a raid tier is a sum of its bosses, and a job may perform fine across the majority while still underperforming on the whole due to the one problematic fight) and gave proof of the former post's second (DRG had already gone from 4th worst to 3rd best melee).

The image function does not appear to be working, so I'll merely leave the links as to the given Max I mentioned by way of showing these things change constantly, lest you next call me a liar just because I didn't write out numbers that may or may not have actually ever been on fflogs:
http://prntscr.com/ul1235 (3rd best job overall; 2nd best melee)
https://ibb.co/WzGPZRd (2nd best melee)
http://prntscr.com/ul0yb3 (DRG's problem child fight.)
http://prntscr.com/ul0yyc (2nd best melee)
http://prntscr.com/ul0zio (Ahead of Monk)


Values not among the highest levels will change far less noticeably, so I'll still expect that anyone can look them up the other tiers for themselves.



Is the second image supposed to be my "doctored" image, or your proof to the contrary? They're identical.

I posted the 2-week period for each fight to show why the 2nd fight so screws over DRG's overall performance, and the 1-Day overall as an image of what I mentioned earlier.

Somehow the "liar!" bit took even less time than I thought. Every picture includes its frames of reference. None are doctored.

My Metrics didn't contradict themselves. Look at all your metrics in your earlier posting that is DRG rank 1 and 2 every fight? NO so what are you on about? that's a 1 day Metric TALK about cherry picking.
Most of your defense is just ad hominem, The honest fact is DRG gets ahead of MNK at 95%+ And i advocate for minor changes, I think both jobs need changes to be up to snuff Sorry it's the truth when you look at all the metrics BLM and SAM are way to flexible.

[Shurrikhan]

Your LINK http://prntscr.com/ul0l97
Your LINK https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png

1.
1.

You're cropping my link to remove the part that clearly says "Ramuh"... why, exactly? They're literally just "All Bosses - 1 Day", "Ramuh - 2 weeks", "Ifrit & Garuda - 2 weeks", "Idol - 2 weeks", and "Shiva - 2 weeks", respectively, each at Max as stated. Why try to pretend that the bars from one belong to another?

The problem is you argue for Max and everyone in that percentile bounce from 97 to max depending on pure sheer luck.

I've not. I understand you've made your strawman very vivid for yourself, though.

It'd be more productive to figure out how to get these jobs up to flexibility and snuff with the current leading jobs that don't even start to sweat in all the current end-game fights.

By all means, then suggest as much that.

Raw potency buffs, "parrying buffs", or making it less "heavi[ly] reliant on tank positioning", however, are not the answer; outside of its worst fight per tier, Dragoon is doing fine, so raw potency is unnecessary, while your own suggestions would do virtually nothing for where DRG actually suffers.

Might I suggest evaluating the Eyes mechanic instead?

[Renkei]

You're cropping my link to remove the part that clearly says "Ramuh"... why, exactly? They're literally just "All Bosses - 1 Day", "Ramuh - 2 weeks", "Ifrit & Garuda - 2 weeks", "Idol - 2 weeks", and "Shiva - 2 weeks", respectively, each at Max as stated. Why try to pretend that the bars from one belong to another?



I've not. I understand you've made your strawman very vivid for yourself, though.


By all means, then suggest as much that.

Raw potency buffs, "parrying buffs", or making it less "heavi[ly] reliant on tank positioning", however, are not the answer; outside of its worst fight per tier, Dragoon is doing fine, so raw potency is unnecessary, while your own suggestions would do virtually nothing for where DRG actually suffers.

Might I suggest evaluating the Eyes mechanic instead?

https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png
http://prntscr.com/ul0l97


Your Example Of Cherry Picking, now accusing me of cropping when these are both the same link inspect the image source yourself.

I Didn't crop any of your links those were the links you posted, I saved the links you posted in an edit that you posted and now your accusing me of cropping them.

Me Stating "The problem is you argue for Max and everyone in that percentile bounce from 97 to max depending on pure sheer luck." is not anywhere close to a Straw-man It's a fact at high level of play. Because 10,000 more people play DRG then MNK it makes it highly more likely that DRG will slightly Edge out MNK Statiically because the Sample Size is bigger. How is that a Straw-man when its actual factual math?

I've Suggested Multiple Balance changes over the past entire Expansion Cycle Never have i suggested any raw potency changes to the job.

The only thing that actually needs to be changed is for DRG and MNK to have their Stacks not on a timer so they aren't LOST. most jobs permanently store their job resources except these two jobs. (and DRGS 10 second Wheeling And Fang and Claw needs to be 15 second to match all other procs in the game being 15 seconds.)

Remove Antaman, and Remove Blood of the dragon. or extend the duration of the effects to match Ninjas Huton. PROBLEM SOLVED. The Problem is DRG's Geir and Nastrod rely on this timer instead of having charges for some strange reason. either reverse the flow of the aura in question, or make it so the aura has to be reapplied or remove the timer, there's plenty of ways to improve these designs it's not a problem with just MONK this problem exists with the lower half of jobs in the game

DRG's eye mechanic behaves just like Charges DO.