SCH QOL changes for 5.35/5.4

[Semirhage]

The high availability GCD shields don't stack for a really obvious reason: shield stacking allows you to skip mechanics. It's why they changed how critlo and spreadlo worked after adding Recitation. A spread crit Adlo in expansions past allowed for cheesy things that fight designers didn't like seeing.

If you want uber strong shield stacking, the easiest way to allow that IMO is standardizing debuffs through shields. If an enormous barrier makes a boss's attack do zero damage, it shouldn't also block an important mechanical debuff from hitting the party due to that attack, allowing you to cheese the whole thing. My opinion, if they made that change, stack away. Now, I think Yoshi would say that having a boatload of extra HP buffer could be exploitable. And depending on the encounter it very well could be. But in most scenarios, spamming your shields on everyone is both too draining, and a waste of time.

[bundythenoob]

I'm not a fan of getting Bane back personnaly. Not that I wouldn't want to, but that's not on top of my priorities. Plus, if it's back, I'd prefer it to work differently than the old one. I don't think I'd like the AF cost on it.

As for status, I'm all for it. Shadowflare had Slow, Ruin II had blind. It was small little addition that just felt nice to have.
And of course, i'd be glad if WHM got Aero 3 back.

I'm interested to hear why you wouldn't want Bane back (or its current version anyway). do you think that buffing embrace would be a better option?

Also for 6.0, if Square is gonna return SCHs attacks and give AST some utility back (slow/stun) then WHM BETTER get Aero 3 back, as well as a much needed Fluid Aura buff. I'll never 4get my absolutely fav thing to do on WHM, using Fluid as a killmove to knock dead enemy corpses 15 yalms away ;-;7

[Gravagar]

The high availability GCD shields don't stack for a really obvious reason: shield stacking allows you to skip mechanics. It's why they changed how critlo and spreadlo worked after adding Recitation. A spread crit Adlo in expansions past allowed for cheesy things that fight designers didn't like seeing.

If you want uber strong shield stacking, the easiest way to allow that IMO is standardizing debuffs through shields. If an enormous barrier makes a boss's attack do zero damage, it shouldn't also block an important mechanical debuff from hitting the party due to that attack, allowing you to cheese the whole thing. My opinion, if they made that change, stack away. Now, I think Yoshi would say that having a boatload of extra HP buffer could be exploitable. And depending on the encounter it very well could be. But in most scenarios, spamming your shields on everyone is both too draining, and a waste of time.

I'm very familiar with the excuses that are commonly given every time shielding gets nerfed, but in the end, they ARE just excuses. Tanks are allowed to cheese mechanics with Hallowed etc, so I see no problem with giving healers a similarly powerful ability. Encounters being cheesable with certain tools are an encounter design problem. You can see the encounter design team rising to counter player strategies with things like random-target unlabeled stack AoEs. They didn't like that tanks could say "I got this, don't stack on me" and run off, pop their invuln, and completely ignore a mechanic... so they removed the marker you rely on to know when it's safe to do so.


Every tank and healer should have defensive tools that make everyone go "woah, that was awesome!," like how old Deployment was. That's good job design, it's a good time for players, and adds more depth to a role that has been suffering from shallowness problems.


Both mechanical debuffs and punishments for messing up mechanics already ignore shielding. Believe me, I've tried, and I can PROMISE you that Forsaken and Hello World still apply debuffs even if HP bars don't move. Occasionally you can nullify a lingering DoT effect after a partywide attack (Quickthinx and Cruise Chaser come to mind), but that's not even a mechanic, it's just... using shields to prevent (even more) damage that you would have to heal. Using healer damage-mitigation mechanics to mitigate damage... Why vilify that?

[Maltothoris]

It was that just mechanics that deployed critlo allowed you to skip but basically an entire phase if possible. The three instances that are oft mentioned are O8s, O9s, O11s and O12s. With O8s, you negated basically all the damage that 2nd forsaken did up to the light of judgement. For O9s, it was the earth phase of the fight that critlo allowed you to cheese cause if you took no damage, the healers and tanks only would need to worry about the conal aoes. In O11s, there were instances of it where you didn't need to tank lb3 for the wave cannon damage after the checker and no need to tank lb cheese the red fists before second pantokrator. In O12s, it was the fact if you deployed at the right time, the only damage you needed to healer were the last 3 defamations before the ion efflux which ended the hello world phases.

It was the fact you could basically bypass whole phases with a critlo (aided by largasse, nature's minne and convalescence) and lb cheesing is why you see what they did to sch shielding and I don't see what they could of done with Whm or Noct astro that could ever get them on that level.

[Semirhage]

I'm very familiar with the excuses that are commonly given every time shielding gets nerfed, but in the end, they ARE just excuses. Tanks are allowed to cheese mechanics with Hallowed etc, so I see no problem with giving healers a similarly powerful ability.

Adloquium doesn't have a seven minute cooldown.

[KDSilver]

I'm interested to hear why you wouldn't want Bane back (or its current version anyway). do you think that buffing embrace would be a better option?

Also for 6.0, if Square is gonna return SCHs attacks and give AST some utility back (slow/stun) then WHM BETTER get Aero 3 back, as well as a much needed Fluid Aura buff. I'll never 4get my absolutely fav thing to do on WHM, using Fluid as a killmove to knock dead enemy corpses 15 yalms away ;-;7

It's not that I'm firmly against. Considering the current toolkit SCH has compare to its older form, I would be glad to get anything back.
However, I think that it used to be more "engaging" to spread 3 dots than just one. As for why I think I wouldn't want the AF cost on it, it's because how you can heal with SCH in dungeon for wall to wall pull. You can properly rotate each of your oGCD in between each Art of War, and keep the AF stack for some soil or lustrate. Yes, there are several times that you'll end up with still 1 or 2 stacks remaining that could totally go into Bane (you use it into Energy drain so). But I think it's comfier this way. Plus, I think the SMN version of Bane right looks good to play, with its 100% of refreshing DoTs.
Now that Excog and Soil (with regen) exist, there are more room for AF healing usage, and what's remaining can safely go to energy drain for mana.

That's only for dungeons however.
But that's just a personnal preference. If Bane would be back as it was, I'd definitely use it.
What I'm trying to say is, it's not THE skill I miss the most on SCH.I would vastly prefer to get something like Miasma because only one DoT is really meh or even Shadwoflare first.

For Embrace, I don't really know. Currently, it's really weak and you can't micromanage it anymore.
I understand why the fairy took another hit in the teeth. We all know about who used to be SCH and its glorified position in the meta. It was not just about the fairy of course, it was definitly part of it.
150 pot today isn't justified however I think. Because healing calculation have been revised in lvl80. So I don't think it makes embrace as powerful as it used too.
Also, what used to make the fairy a strong asset was its comparison with Noct AST who couldn't compete and had that lack of regen. Now, it has Celestial Intersection which kinda closed the gap and if really needeed, Neutral Sect.

I don't think what bothers me the most is its potency right now. But the fact that Embrace is out of control. Some people might argue that they never tried to micromanage Embrace anyway so it doesn't change anything. But for people who used to work with it, I think I'd like something like DNC closed position where you can select the target you'd want your fairy to cast her embrace on. Cause most of the time, you want it on your tank for auto.
But that wouldn't work well if it has an animation, cause you'd have to weave it.
I want the old micromanagment of the fairy anyway...

I remember a raid though (A7S) where sending your fairy to the DPS jail allowed you to keep him alive with Embrace. But there aren't as many existing scenario where you'd another target than your tank (except extra damage on someone that Embrace can cover instead of casting some physick or wasting some lustrate on him.)

I don't have a correct answer for that. (and I don't want another healer war where "blabla, sch buff, sch meta, sch fairy", I'm tired of this).

[bundythenoob]

snip

You do bring up some interesting points about AF spending, but atm I think that one of SCHs weaknesses comes from its lack of AOE AF spending. I know that dumping excess into ED for more mana can be nice, but there have been plenty of times during my dungeon runs where i thought to myself "it would be nice to spend the AF on Bane and spread dots like in STB". I don't think Bane should return by itself though, but in tandem with Miasma at least to give us 2 dots to spread. ideally, we could get our 2 dots back and give the virus debuff to AoW for added flavour, but that's a big if that hinges on WHM getting aero 3/fluid aura back, and on AST getting a slow for gravity + CO stun for 6.0.

As for Embrace and the fairies, you're totally right in that I'd much rather have 4.0 fairy back with targetable embrace. its lower potency is hurting lower level players, and without the ability to control it to target heal with physick, it makes healing during ARR/some HW content a lot harder than it used to be. I've also heard that it shows almost no impact in lv 80 content, but that may be due to them buffing soil + recitation + seraph for lv 80 content to "make up for embrace". it still doesnt make sense though that they went and broke the fairies. that's definitely something that must be remedied by 6.0 above else.

Tbh it feels like the battle systems devs went and """balanced""" all of the jobs around lv 80 content, but totally forgot about the balance at lv 50, 60, 70, and all of the other levels in between. just another problem that would be solved if they hired a dedicated healer dev (and a tank one too, for obvious reasons)

[Gravagar]

It was that just mechanics that deployed critlo allowed you to skip but basically an entire phase if possible....

It was the fact you could basically bypass whole phases with a critlo (aided by largasse, nature's minne and convalescence) and lb cheesing is why you see what they did to sch shielding and I don't see what they could of done with Whm or Noct astro that could ever get them on that level.

To the first points: "Skip" implies that victory at that phase becomes a foregone conclusion regardless of what you do, like skipping Soar. That's not true. You don't get to skip all of Hello World no matter how much shielding you have. If passing rot goes poorly, then you're dead anyway. If I inaccurately aim my conal aoe in Forsaken and cleave the party, a deployed adlo will not save them. You still have to do the phase. Effectively using your tools as a healer leads to you having an easier time doing the healing part of those mechanics. There are more fallible ways to do those mechanics than a beefy deployed adlo, or more costly ways, yes. But calling a situation in which I use a healy button now so that I don't have to use a different healy button later a "skip" is something I cannot agree to, unless you consider healing everyone up after / during a mechanic to also be "skipping" it.

To the second point: Understandable, I don't hold most people accountable for coming up with good designs. I DO hold the dev team accountable for that, however, and I expect a certain level of quality for what I pay for. They're professionals, and shouldn't come up on mental blocks as easy as us players. Shadowbringers did not deliver the expected quality level on the job design front at all, for my salty healer self anyway. As for WHM, they have DR from their wings, maybe that but bigger and better. AST could cast Undo and fix a big oopsie, if they kept their time mageyness. Add some clause about how these three big cooldowns don't interact together / can't be stacked... These ideas are probably terrible, but I'm saying them anyway, because it's not an impossible request, I believe.

Adloquium doesn't have a seven minute cooldown.

Did you mean Deployment? I'll assume you did, since we're talking about it, but please do correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd rather take Deployment's cooldown doubling or tripling over it being completely neutered. Yes, even if its cooldown is significantly longer than any tank invuln cooldown, I would still gladly take that kind of nerf over the mistreatment it got.

[KDSilver]

You do bring up some interesting points about AF spending, but atm I think that one of SCHs weaknesses comes from its lack of AOE AF spending. I know that dumping excess into ED for more mana can be nice, but there have been plenty of times during my dungeon runs where i thought to myself "it would be nice to spend the AF on Bane and spread dots like in STB".

Which is something I totally understand and realized too indeed. As I said, you spend the extra on Energy drain anyway.
I wonder if getting Energy Siphon from smn wouldn't be an answer to that. Sharing the same 3s recast time, also restoring 500 mp, but being a 50 potency aoe damage. But people might be upset of it I guess ? Because it would make SCH and SMN alike once more and I think people want them to be seperated even if they share Arcanist as their primary class.

I don't think Bane should return by itself though, but in tandem with Miasma at least to give us 2 dots to spread. ideally, we could get our 2 dots back and give the virus debuff to AoW for added flavour, but that's a big if that hinges on WHM getting aero 3/fluid aura back, and on AST getting a slow for gravity + CO stun for 6.0.

Yeah, if Miasma comes back, why not. I'd love to.
I'm not for getting a Virus debuff on Art of War though. For balance purpose. You can (rarely though) see some use of Art of War in raid situation. Virus was 15% if I remember correctly, which is really strong.
I'd prefer a debuff that only work on trash mob such as slow/blind/stun so that it doesn't disrupt other content balance as well. Of course, if SCH gets that, i'd want the other to get something back as well. I miss Aero 3 and the damage on fluid aura.
(I really liked Virus though)

As for Embrace and the fairies, you're totally right in that I'd much rather have 4.0 fairy back with targetable embrace. its lower potency is hurting lower level players

I don't know if it does. Critlo on lower level just double your HP bar and succor heal+shield has been buffed.
I think it's more a panic feeling. I remember my leveling when I started the game. I didn't understand what oGCD was, was not using my fairy at all and any missing HP made me fear for their lives. So when you see that succor doesn't restore as much HP than medica, and you don't understand that the yellow bar is a shield and make your party safe, don't have confidence it regen... it "looks" like SCH is weak. But it's not. Whispering Dawn alone already covers mostly everything. But you have to think to use it in both single target and aoe situation (single for trash pull and aoe for bosses in dungeon).
SCH is actually certainly more safe for a newcommer than WHM. What they need is actually understand what their tool does.
Despite being nerfed, Embrace still restore a good amount of HP in lower level. I know I raised this fact in another topic, but I don't believe this nerf impact SCH at all. Especially with Adlo being at its best iteration today.

Tbh it feels like the battle systems devs went and """balanced""" all of the jobs around lv 80 content, but totally forgot about the balance at lv 50, 60, 70, and all of the other levels in between. just another problem that would be solved if they hired a dedicated healer dev (and a tank one too, for obvious reasons)

Yes, that's the case for a lot of classes. They looks broken.
See Divination on AST for example. You can't align it with every other buff until lvl70 when you learn sleeve draw. Drk looks weak because TBN is also being the lvl70 wall. Their 2nd aoe combo is learnt at lvl72. War doesn't build its gauge on aoe until lvl74-78 ? Don't remember.
There are so many example of that.

[KDSilver]

To the first points: "Skip" implies that victory at that phase becomes a foregone conclusion regardless of what you do, like skipping Soar.

I think the correct word for that is more "ignore" unavoidable aoe damage.
Which is true.

But yeah, critlo spread went from godsend to "meh", might as well just succor.

It felt nice to be a SCH a do that back in HW/SB. But I understand why they took it away.
I think nowadays, deployment should get some new flavor. Spreading something else. But I wouldn't want it to feel "overpowered" as it used to, cause that's why it as been nerfed in the first place.
I thought about excog with a lowered potency like 200. So that it add a little something over succor.

I know eye for an eye spread was not that good unfortunately. But the fact that this option existed was still a little "something". I'd be glad to see Deployment having another synergy like that that isn't just with adlo.