5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

[Goji1639]

You have zero understanding of difficulty in this game because you're basically playing hello kitty island adventure, it's unsurprising you think a Ohko is hard.

Get good, scrub.

A 1 hit KO that isn't telegraphed isn't hard in and of itself; it's just a guaranteed death that the game didn't in any way earn. Real difficult games can kill you without robbing you of any way to fight back. This game just has to resort to sneaking a few unavoidable kills in on new players to create the illusion of difficulty; to make MMO specialists like you feel hardcore.

Maybe one day you'll play a game that's difficult enough for you to tell someone to 'get good' seriously.

[Xtrasweettea]

[snip]

I honestly do not want to go too much into this, as I have explained my points in my posts.

Here is the thing: it is a trap for new players if new players are only looking for the AOE markers and ignoring all of the other cues. This fight was to break muscle memory so that when you did harder content, you would be looking out for other cues besides the AOE marker.

If people did that, Steps of Faith would not be the wipe-fest as it was released and still after the initial nerfs, complaining about Shinryu, and the raid-ender known as TGCid.

As for the mentioning of action games, Goji opened the door for that one and allowed that one in when he mentioned DS. Goji is the one who owns the frame of the conversation. He could've brought up another MMO (Blade an Soul for example). Of course, I mentioned the shortcomings from that comparison in another post to him.

FFXI, is an MMO, just so you can separate that out from the two more-action oriented games I have referenced.

[Canada_bangs]

I honestly do not want to go too much into this, as I have explained my points in my posts.

Here is the thing: it is a trap for new players if new players are only looking for the AOE markers and ignoring all of the other cues. This fight was to break muscle memory so that when you did harder content, you would be looking out for other cues besides the AOE marker.

If people did that, Steps of Faith would not be the wipe-fest as it was released and still after the initial nerfs, complaining about Shinryu, and the raid-ender known as TGCid.

As for the mentioning of action games, Goji opened the door for that one and allowed that one in when he mentioned DS. Goji is the one who owns the frame of the conversation. He could've brought up another MMO (Blade an Soul for example). Of course, I mentioned the shortcomings from that comparison in another post to him.

FFXI, is an MMO, just so you can separate that out from the two more-action oriented games I have referenced.

I mean I get your point. The biggest thing I agree with G on is the fact that most new players won't know to run from his start up because up to that point I think all the bosses have aoes to a point. Coin is the start of introducing new mechs if my memory is correct. I know someone mentioned a fate that does it but I dunno any new players who seriously does fates. I didn't and noone I know did them while leveling up the first time. I agree with him that is' abit bad but at the same time I also agree that the change wasn't needed. Though the reason why I think it's bad is different. Mostly because the AOEs in this game are lying to you anyway. My only point is most people aren't looking for other clues before they get to coincounter. Now if you want to say that's a player issue then that's a different story, and I'll partly agree with you.

[Goji1639]

So let me get this straight. A boss that can only 1 shot with a clearly named attack, with a very clear tell and a long cast bar, is causing all this "debate" and grandstanding? How silly.

Thanks for verifying that it's indeed a 1 hit kill; that is the crux of this discussion so it's nice to get that out of the way.

As for the rest, please describe what the "very clear tell" is. The name and long cast bar literally tell you nothing about the attack, and thus don't provide any means to know how to avoid it. So, you see the name "100-Tonze Swing" and you see a long cast bar. Based on that information what is the correct reaction to avoid dying?

[Roda]

The crux of the arguement has been that Coincounter one-shots players. I decided to test this by finding the absolute maximum values its attacks can do by removing all armor, making the normal resistances 0.

10-tonze Swipe: 1.2k damage.
100-tonze Swipe: 2.1k damage
Glower: 1.4k damage
100-Tonze Swing: 5k
Eye of the beholder: 1.2k + 174 tick dot

I then found out the armor levels and mitigation granted by them at level 47, the minimum level to queue. For a caster, the worst case since the dangerous things are physical, this is 247 Phisical defense. This offers roughly 10% mitigation. This is enough to allow casters to survive everything except 100-Tonze Swing.

I also checked tank stats. Along with their natural 20% mitigation, they get 622 defense, which is roughly 27% mitigation. This is easily enough to survive a 100-Tonze Swing.

Finally, I checked Melee DPS. They get 342 Defense. This is 15% mitigation, which, like casters, means they only die to 100-Tonze Swing.

So let me get this straight. A boss that can only 1 shot with a clearly named attack, with a very clear tell and a long cast bar, is causing all this "debate" and grandstanding? How silly.

It's ok to die in this game. That's where the learning happens. There was nothing innately unfair about Coincounter's previous design.

Finally some good freaking facts. ♥

Thanks for verifying that it's indeed a 1 hit kill; that is the crux of this discussion so it's nice to get that out of the way.

As for the rest, please describe what the "very clear tell" is. The name and long cast bar literally tell you nothing about the attack, and thus don't provide any means to know how to avoid it. So, you see the name "100-Tonze Swing" and you see a long cast bar. Based on that information what is the correct reaction to avoid dying?

"Oh hecc he's charging up a big swing for a long time, better back off to see what happens since the game seems to be giving me the time to do so" -Me, person who has played a videogame before, circa 2013

[Goji1639]

Finally some good freaking facts. ♥




"Oh hecc he's charging up a big swing for a long time, better back off to see what happens since the game seems to be giving me the time to do so" -Me, person who has played a videogame before, circa 2013

Do you run away and see what happens every time you see a castbar? Honestly that name sounds like a tankbuster to me.

He bends down and holds the club in front of his body. In addition, his archtype has "Swing" attacks prior to meeting him. Sure, players may die the first time seeing Swing. Specifically Physical Melee since this is the first instance of Chariot in the game. Once they see it once, they'll know what to do the second time. They've learned. Not bad design. Basic design. One employed by Super Mario.

It's bad design because there's no way to infer what's coming and avoid it. There's nothing in Super Mario that works like that.

[Roda]

Do you run away and see what happens every time you see a castbar? Honestly that name sounds like a tankbuster to me.

Long cast bar? Yeah pretty much on my first time seeing a boss. Pretty standard practice to change what you're currently doing when a game starts you off with doing one thing, and then shows itself giving you a long time to react to something. And PB AoEs are like the most common threat like that in mmos. Pair that with his initial attacks before "reconsidering" discribing his cleaves as a "swipe" and then showing "swing" with a long cast bar and similar charging animations to the swipe and you have to assume he's going to let out something that's a bit more than a "swing" that works similarly without precise floor indicators.

[Goji1639]

Long cast bar? Yeah pretty much on my first time seeing a boss. Pretty standard practice to change what you're currently doing when a game starts you off with doing one thing, and then shows itself giving you a long time to react to something. And PB AoEs are like the most common threat like that in mmos. Pair that with his initial attacks before "reconsidering" discribing his cleaves as a "swipe" and then showing "swing" with a long cast bar and similar charging animations to the swipe and you have to assume he's going to let out something that's a bit more than a "swing" that works similarly without precise floor indicators.

lol, well if that's your method then kudos, you guessed right on Coincounter and guessed wrong on nearly every other boss you've faced in every dungeon going forward.

Look, I understand that you're just trying to rationalize this in hindsight now to pretend that exactly what the attack does is obvious from the name and castbar alone, but you're being disingenuous. There's literally no way to know what the attack does with that information; saying new players should be able to work it out is completely unrealistic.

The first Goomba in SMB1 was designed to be this: If a new player doesn't know how to jump, then they die right out of the gate. They must learn to jump, something that wasn't obvious back when the game first released. They needed to experament to figure out how to get passed this obstacles and they died until they did.

Death as a teacher is one of the oldest tropes in video games. Few games do not use it. This is simple fact.

You guys are making disingenuous arguments now. It's perfectly reasonable to expect people to know how to jump before even the first Goomba in SMB. There's literally only 2 buttons you can press and you have plenty of time to try them both before you're confronted with an enemy.

Coincounters mechanic isn't something you can realistically infer with the information and tools you have going into the fight.

[Goji1639]

Ah. Making an argument you cannot handle by citing the most famous example in existence means I'm being "disingenuous" now, huh? Don't take it from me. Take it from one of the many interviews with Shigeru Miyamoto, aka one of the best video game designers of all time.

No, I handled the argument fine; even explained why you're wrong. Death being a "fine teacher" has literally nothing to do with what I'm saying about Coincounter. The fact that has mechanic can be learned doesn't make it a good mechanic; It's still a 1 hit kill with no tells and thus still crap design.

Your SMB example simply doesn't work. Everything in SMB can be inferred in the moment and avoided.

In the case of coincounter, you get the tools during the fight. You don't always need all tools going in. That sort of mentality is 10-ply.

In Coincounters case you get the tools after the fight, when you've already died. If you got the tools during the fight, and were given the opportunity to use them during the fight, it would be different. Since that's not the case, it's a bad mechanic.

[Goji1639]

You don't get to decide why Shigeru Miyamoto designed SMB1 the way he has stated he did. How embarrassing for you to try. Now who's being unreasonable? Lol

I didn't say anything about how he designed SMB1. I said Coincounter is a completely different design than SMB1, and I'm right. Coincounter is bad design because it doesn't give you a way to infer the mechanic and react correctly during the fight. In SMB1 everything can be inferred during the fight.