I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Nestama]

So a DPS running off and doing their own thing by pulling more is completely fine, but a tank doing their own thing by tanking one pack at a time is a grievous offense?

It's actively choosing to do nothing once the DPS returns with the pack. It's petty and if the healer and other DPS don't notice, then they get KO'd as well (thus causing a wipe that could be easily prevented if the tank ->). A simple AoE rotation to grab the mobs is all the tank has to do and once that's dealt with, the tank can speak up and ask the DPS not to do that. However if the tank notices there were no issues with having a second pack added to theirs, they should consider doing bigger pulls. Especially if they're in level 50/60/70/80 dungeons.

[tdb]

It's actively choosing to do nothing once the DPS returns with the pack. It's petty and if the healer and other DPS don't notice, then they get KO'd as well (thus causing a wipe that could be easily prevented if the tank ->).

It sure is, but sometimes that seems to be the only thing those people will understand. This one time back in Stormblood I was healing in St. Mocianne's Arboretum and got a tank who just didn't tank. He ran most of the dungeon without tank stand and pulled single packs (which was just as well since the DPS were tanking about half the mobs). I told him several times during the run to turn on tank stance and start behaving like a tank, to no avail. I warned I'd get him kicked. Eventually we arrived at the final boss and he hadn't tanked a single pack properly. He also hadn't rolled on any loot, so I had to do the petty thing by staying out of the fight and forcing a wipe. Fortunately one of the DPS was my FC-mate and from the chatting during the dungeon I knew the other one to be on board with me. When the wipe happened the loot timer had expired and we were able to kick the non-tank. We then proceeded to kick the boss's ass with a SAM tanking, and it was more interesting than usual because I actually had to pay attention to healing.

I'm fine with running a dungeon at the tank's pace, however fast or slow that might be. If the tank is new, disabled, drunk, undergeared or just bad and can't hold aggro but is at least trying, I will do my best to cover for their mistakes and keep everyone up. I'll give summaries of boss tactics if asked and will tell what went wrong if we wipe. But this one guy was so clearly just using a tank class to skip queue while actually playing DPS, and didn't even say anything during the entire dungeon, that I refused to give them a free completion.

[Penthea]

So a DPS running off and doing their own thing by pulling more is completely fine, but a tank doing their own thing by tanking one pack at a time is a grievous offense?

The tank only exists to satisfy the whims of other players, even when those players are making a very bad decision. It's a slave role in which you're expected to do whatever you're told or silently given to do, and if you don't or complain then you're a bad tank. They should just remove party chat from tanks. It clearly exists as only a novelty because their job is to shut up, adjust and obey. If you want any scrap of free will play something else. The tank role is not for you if you want to have any say in how anything is done. Only healers and dps are granted this privilege.

/s in case that wasn't obvious

However if the tank notices there were no issues with having a second pack added to theirs, they should consider doing bigger pulls. Especially if they're in level 50/60/70/80 dungeons.

This I can get behind, though I'm still not fond of the idea of being like "hey tank here's some extra stuff for you to do and you better do it or you're bad!". It really isn't that hard to ASK someone to do something before you just force them to do it. Party chat exists for a reason. Why not use it?

[Vahlnir]

The tank only exists to satisfy the whims of other players, even when those players are making a very bad decision. It's a slave role in which you're expected to do whatever you're told or silently given to do, and if you don't or complain then you're a bad tank. They should just remove party chat from tanks. It clearly exists as only a novelty because their job is to shut up, adjust and obey. If you want any scrap of free will play something else. The tank role is not for you if you want to have any say in how anything is done. Only healers and dps are granted this privilege.

Tanks are basically the mages and warlocks (WoW classes) of FF XIV. "Refreshment table pls!" "LOCK CLOSET NOW! 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1". It truly is a thankless job sometimes.

[Penthea]

Tanks are basically the mages and warlocks (WoW classes) of FF XIV. "Refreshment table pls!" "LOCK CLOSET NOW! 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1". It truly is a thankless job sometimes.

Oh god I remember those days. I recall once I thanked a mage for the water they conjured for me and a hunter said something like "why are you thanking him for just doing his job?". This was in my early days of mmos and I was quite surprised that he was offended that I thanked someone for something. I played a mage for a while and my gaming rig wasn't great at the time so my load times were a bit long. I once loaded into a dungeon and the healer was saying "mage where is my water? why haven't you traded me yet?". My load times were a bit longer than most players, but not THAT long. I miss some things about WoW...but definitely not stuff like that. Not that FFXIV is perfect! There are certainly some things that happen here that I didn't deal with much in WoW, but that's another topic altogether.

And no I don't look down on people who do everything in silence, but I certainly don't resonate with the sort of attitude in which you should never give appreciation to someone doing something good for the group.

[Vahlnir]

Oh god I remember those days. I recall once I thanked a mage for the water they conjured for me and a hunter said something like "why are you thanking him for just doing his job?". This was in my early days of mmos and I was quite surprised that he was offended that I thanked someone for something. I played a mage for a while and my gaming rig wasn't great at the time so my load times were a bit long. I once loaded into a dungeon and the healer was saying "mage where is my water? why haven't you traded me yet?". My load times were a bit longer than most players, but not THAT long. I miss some things about WoW...but definitely not stuff like that. Not that FFXIV is perfect! There are certainly some things that happen here that I didn't deal with much in WoW, but that's another topic altogether.

And no I don't look down on people who do everything in silence, but I certainly don't resonate with the sort of attitude in which you should never give appreciation to someone doing something good for the group.

Don't worry, the WoW community has not changed. They still demand water and transportation.

[Awha]

Oh god I remember those days. I recall once I thanked a mage for the water they conjured for me and a hunter said something like "why are you thanking him for just doing his job?". This was in my early days of mmos and I was quite surprised that he was offended that I thanked someone for something. I played a mage for a while and my gaming rig wasn't great at the time so my load times were a bit long. I once loaded into a dungeon and the healer was saying "mage where is my water? why haven't you traded me yet?". My load times were a bit longer than most players, but not THAT long. I miss some things about WoW...but definitely not stuff like that. Not that FFXIV is perfect! There are certainly some things that happen here that I didn't deal with much in WoW, but that's another topic altogether.

And no I don't look down on people who do everything in silence, but I certainly don't resonate with the sort of attitude in which you should never give appreciation to someone doing something good for the group.

I was one or those players, even IRL I scratch my head when people thank me for performing my role or doing my job. I do not get offended, but it does make sense to me in the slightest.

On tbe topic I do agree communication is key. Just at times it seems like a gamble and over time I have noticed that many seem to operate on the notion it is better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. In the sense if tanking if the group forces it on the tank and it is successful pull and they still refuse to do larger pulls people will view them as being a bad, lazy, snowflake tank. Though if one asks they run the risk of them saying no without even trying to see if the group would falter.

It is a rough spot to be in at times.

[Penthea]

I was one or those players, even IRL I scratch my head when people thank me for performing my role or doing my job. I do not get offended, but it does make sense to me in the slightest.

Oh yea I totally understand someone's logic when they say "why should I thank someone for something they should be doing?" but it's another thing altogether to get offended when someone does. That's just being spiteful for literally no good reason.

I don't expect to be thanked when I do a good job healing, but it's nice when it does happen. And I like when I see people do the same to others.

On tbe topic I do agree communication is key. Just at times it seems like a gamble and over time I have noticed that many seem to operate on the notion it is better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. In the sense if tanking if the group forces it on the tank and it is successful pull and they still refuse to do larger pulls people will view them as being a bad, lazy, snowflake tank. Though if one asks they run the risk of them saying no without even trying to see if the group would falter.

It is a rough spot to be in at times.

Chances are if they say no things wouldn't turn out well anyway if you made that decision for them. At best you would annoy someone. At worst they or others will leave. Neither of those situations is good but obviously one is far worse than the other.

If a person wants something and nothing else is acceptable they should just leave if what they want is impossible whether due to the skill of the group or someone refusing to do something. Or alternatively vote kick. Either way someone not fitting in with what the group wants ends up leaving.

I'm a pretty easy going person but like everyone else there are limits to my patience. If I'm in a situation in which I'm expected to do something I think is unreasonable or what the group wants is something I refuse to give, I leave. I never leave silently though. Like for example if I come across a very undergeared tank who isn't very good that makes every pull a nightmare I say something like "bad gear and bad use of cds, you're making me work very hard for your shortcomings. Find another healer for this, I'm not dealing with it." and then I leave. No need for insults. Just say what's wrong, and go. It's a game. No one has to deal with other people's playstyles if they don't want to.

EDIT: just want to say that if I come across a bad tank with bad gear I do advise them to pull less or use their cds better, and if they refuse or simply cannot do it that's when I choose to leave the group.

[Awha]

Oh yea I totally understand someone's logic when they say "why should I thank someone for something they should be doing?" but it's another thing altogether to get offended when someone does. That's just being spiteful for literally no good reason.

I don't expect to be thanked when I do a good job healing, but it's nice when it does happen. And I like when I see people do the same to others.

Chances are if they say no things wouldn't turn out well anyway if you made that decision for them. At best you would annoy someone. At worst they or others will leave. Neither of those situations is good but obviously one is far worse than the other.

If a person wants something and nothing else is acceptable they should just leave if what they want is impossible whether due to the skill of the group or someone refusing to do something. Or alternatively vote kick. Either way someone not fitting in with what the group wants ends up leaving.

I'm a pretty easy going person but like everyone else there are limits to my patience. If I'm in a situation in which I'm expected to do something I think is unreasonable or what the group wants is something I refuse to give, I leave. I never leave silently though. Like for example if I come across a very undergeared tank who isn't very good that makes every pull a nightmare I say something like "bad gear and bad use of cds, you're making me work very hard for your shortcomings. Find another healer for this, I'm not dealing with it." and then I leave. No need for insults. Just say what's wrong, and go. It's a game. No one has to deal with other people's playstyles if they don't want to.

EDIT: just want to say that if I come across a bad tank with bad gear I do advise them to pull less or use their cds better, and if they refuse or simply cannot do it that's when I choose to leave the group.

Oh I largely agree, this is why I go for the vote or leave route. Though looking at it from the point of others it also makes sense to push forward and force the tank into a situation of having to deal with larger groups. Since if they do fail it does increases the chances for the vote to go through in theory. If it does not fail and the tank still wants single pulls then any potential good will that would have been granted if they would have asked for permission in theory may go out the window. Since in the eyes of everyone else the desire to not do larger pulls shifts from a lack of ability to simply unwillingness to do so.

It is selfish, but in theoretical practice the cons do not absolutely outweigh the pros depending on how one looks and values each situation. It greatly shifts the burden and alters the expectations of the group depending on the outcome. It sort of falls in line with the post you made in sarcasm, for many players tanks really have no value to some players. Their role is just a given necessity forced on them by the developers. Tanking is a thankless role at times, and one that regrettably be manipulated into playing a certain way fairly easy in the current structure of MMO's today.

[Nestama]

This I can get behind, though I'm still not fond of the idea of being like "hey tank here's some extra stuff for you to do and you better do it or you're bad!". It really isn't that hard to ASK someone to do something before you just force them to do it. Party chat exists for a reason. Why not use it?

I think one reason why people don't ask is because they're unsure how someone will act. Asking if a tank could pull more kinda falls in line with asking DPS to AoE, or a Healer to DPS. Sometimes you'll get lucky and either get a "sure thing!" or no response at all, but a clear indication that they're willing to do what you asked... but then there's the chance you'll get the high and mighty privileged "don't tell me what to do!" people and some of us have seen this enough times that it feels like it's better to just throw the person into the deep end of the pool first and then see whether they were okay with it, or they'd prefer it if people didn't do that.