I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Vahlnir]

The tank only exists to satisfy the whims of other players, even when those players are making a very bad decision. It's a slave role in which you're expected to do whatever you're told or silently given to do, and if you don't or complain then you're a bad tank. They should just remove party chat from tanks. It clearly exists as only a novelty because their job is to shut up, adjust and obey. If you want any scrap of free will play something else. The tank role is not for you if you want to have any say in how anything is done. Only healers and dps are granted this privilege.

Tanks are basically the mages and warlocks (WoW classes) of FF XIV. "Refreshment table pls!" "LOCK CLOSET NOW! 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1". It truly is a thankless job sometimes.

[Penthea]

Tanks are basically the mages and warlocks (WoW classes) of FF XIV. "Refreshment table pls!" "LOCK CLOSET NOW! 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1". It truly is a thankless job sometimes.

Oh god I remember those days. I recall once I thanked a mage for the water they conjured for me and a hunter said something like "why are you thanking him for just doing his job?". This was in my early days of mmos and I was quite surprised that he was offended that I thanked someone for something. I played a mage for a while and my gaming rig wasn't great at the time so my load times were a bit long. I once loaded into a dungeon and the healer was saying "mage where is my water? why haven't you traded me yet?". My load times were a bit longer than most players, but not THAT long. I miss some things about WoW...but definitely not stuff like that. Not that FFXIV is perfect! There are certainly some things that happen here that I didn't deal with much in WoW, but that's another topic altogether.

And no I don't look down on people who do everything in silence, but I certainly don't resonate with the sort of attitude in which you should never give appreciation to someone doing something good for the group.

[Vahlnir]

Oh god I remember those days. I recall once I thanked a mage for the water they conjured for me and a hunter said something like "why are you thanking him for just doing his job?". This was in my early days of mmos and I was quite surprised that he was offended that I thanked someone for something. I played a mage for a while and my gaming rig wasn't great at the time so my load times were a bit long. I once loaded into a dungeon and the healer was saying "mage where is my water? why haven't you traded me yet?". My load times were a bit longer than most players, but not THAT long. I miss some things about WoW...but definitely not stuff like that. Not that FFXIV is perfect! There are certainly some things that happen here that I didn't deal with much in WoW, but that's another topic altogether.

And no I don't look down on people who do everything in silence, but I certainly don't resonate with the sort of attitude in which you should never give appreciation to someone doing something good for the group.

Don't worry, the WoW community has not changed. They still demand water and transportation.

[Awha]

Oh god I remember those days. I recall once I thanked a mage for the water they conjured for me and a hunter said something like "why are you thanking him for just doing his job?". This was in my early days of mmos and I was quite surprised that he was offended that I thanked someone for something. I played a mage for a while and my gaming rig wasn't great at the time so my load times were a bit long. I once loaded into a dungeon and the healer was saying "mage where is my water? why haven't you traded me yet?". My load times were a bit longer than most players, but not THAT long. I miss some things about WoW...but definitely not stuff like that. Not that FFXIV is perfect! There are certainly some things that happen here that I didn't deal with much in WoW, but that's another topic altogether.

And no I don't look down on people who do everything in silence, but I certainly don't resonate with the sort of attitude in which you should never give appreciation to someone doing something good for the group.

I was one or those players, even IRL I scratch my head when people thank me for performing my role or doing my job. I do not get offended, but it does make sense to me in the slightest.

On tbe topic I do agree communication is key. Just at times it seems like a gamble and over time I have noticed that many seem to operate on the notion it is better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. In the sense if tanking if the group forces it on the tank and it is successful pull and they still refuse to do larger pulls people will view them as being a bad, lazy, snowflake tank. Though if one asks they run the risk of them saying no without even trying to see if the group would falter.

It is a rough spot to be in at times.

[Krotoan]

First: I tank. A lot. I have no problem pulling wall to wall if the healer/dps can handle it. I know my defensive rotations and how to group/LOS a pack so they're easier to AOE. When I queue DF first thing I ask if my team is randoms is "big or small pulls?". I do what people feel like doing because it's easy for me and what I am ready to do when I queue. I also heal and dps so I'm familiar with the dynamic from any particular role.

I have a question to tanks that say they can't do more than one pack. How do you know you can't handle more than one pack?

Honestly nobody owes their party an explanation for their limitations. The expectation is that you play to the best of your abilities and the content gets cleared. Anyone who wants to login and have their fun is welcome to do so. This being said if you want to go slow and your party does not, this is a valid kick/drop reason. Don't ask, don't tell, just play.
I've had hundreds of "oh.. well these guys don't know how to do this" moments where I'll offer help and then be refused or scolded. This is fine, I made the offer at least. If I have a huge problem I can leave. It's a game though and nobody really owes me an "optimal" experience.



Telling someone "well it's an extra skill or two" is judging them on your standards. For many people just dealing with rotation is max capacity. Barely managing a 3 pack when you aren't comfortable positioning for AOE's or are limited by your own capabilities to one hotbar is some peoples normal and should not be taken beyond "can you pull more?" "No, sorry."

The other side of that is you need to understand a LOT of people will drop you from their parties and you shouldn't be salty about it.

I'd like to know if there are any other reasons that genuinely boil down to a player's skill, and not something that can be easily fixed by simple adjustments or pressing an extra button.

I understand your post is from a place of wanting to understand and I hope someone answers so you do. However trying to "fix" people is a little narcissistic. I don't think making others play like you should be the goal. At best you should just be trying to find people who already play like you and stick with them.

[Raltar]

Saying you can't handle big pulls as a tank is saying you can't hit one or two buttons over and over to keep agro and hitting a defensive cooldown. If that is the case, this isn't the game for you.

It is one thing if the healer doesn't know what they are doing and you die, but it entirely another thing to not be able to keep agro and hit defensive cooldowns. Tanks literally have the most easy job in the entire game.

[BadLala]

Honestly nobody owes their party an explanation for their limitations. The expectation is that you play to the best of your abilities and the content gets cleared.

If someone knows they have limitations and decided to not let the party know, then as you said, they shouldn't be salty if they got kicked out of the party. The expectations however, those are set by the player base. I've said that in a previous thread that got deleted. If a content is done by a large part of the players in a certain way, this will set the expectations of the players doing it. For example, doing a dungeon usually takes 15-20min. No one queues to the dungeon expecting they will stay the full lockout. But doing BA on the other hand, you know you'll be staying for about 2hrs from forming the groups until it is cleared.

So as for pulls, I rarely see a group doing expert with one pack at a time (except for week 1-2). And what drove me to think it's something a lot of players can do, is that I can do it and I'm a really bad tank. I don't even know my rotations nor did I even bother looking at them, since I don't play tanks in raids and trials. I leveled my tank mostly doing PVP. When I tried my luck in leveling roulettes, all I do is click any attack button I see that is an AOE. And before pulling, I just click a defensive cool down. And it seems that it worked fine for me doing two packs. I did wipe a couple of times, but when I asked the healers if it was something I did wrong, they said they weren't comfortable doing more packs so I did one at a time in those runs. So I'm pretty sure my play level is way below the average tank players. And this is during SHB, not SB where tank stance affected your DPS. I have mad respect to the tanks that can dish out massive DPS while holding enmity. I know for sure that I wouldn't be able to do that.

I understand your post is from a place of wanting to understand and I hope someone answers so you do. However trying to "fix" people is a little narcissistic. I don't think making others play like you should be the goal. At best you should just be trying to find people who already play like you and stick with them.

It's not "trying to fix people", it's trying to help them fix something they consider an issue that's preventing them from doing something that may very well be within their capabilities. Like for example if someone told me "I don't want to do dungeons through duty finder because I meet toxic people". I can easily tell them that they can report any toxic player. They say they have an issue, and I'm offering something that can fix that issue. Because as I stated above, all I do is click a button before a pull. It's not asking for an optimal play of a class. If the fix does require something like an optimal play, then I understand that some can't do that.

[Penthea]

I was one or those players, even IRL I scratch my head when people thank me for performing my role or doing my job. I do not get offended, but it does make sense to me in the slightest.

Oh yea I totally understand someone's logic when they say "why should I thank someone for something they should be doing?" but it's another thing altogether to get offended when someone does. That's just being spiteful for literally no good reason.

I don't expect to be thanked when I do a good job healing, but it's nice when it does happen. And I like when I see people do the same to others.

On tbe topic I do agree communication is key. Just at times it seems like a gamble and over time I have noticed that many seem to operate on the notion it is better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. In the sense if tanking if the group forces it on the tank and it is successful pull and they still refuse to do larger pulls people will view them as being a bad, lazy, snowflake tank. Though if one asks they run the risk of them saying no without even trying to see if the group would falter.

It is a rough spot to be in at times.

Chances are if they say no things wouldn't turn out well anyway if you made that decision for them. At best you would annoy someone. At worst they or others will leave. Neither of those situations is good but obviously one is far worse than the other.

If a person wants something and nothing else is acceptable they should just leave if what they want is impossible whether due to the skill of the group or someone refusing to do something. Or alternatively vote kick. Either way someone not fitting in with what the group wants ends up leaving.

I'm a pretty easy going person but like everyone else there are limits to my patience. If I'm in a situation in which I'm expected to do something I think is unreasonable or what the group wants is something I refuse to give, I leave. I never leave silently though. Like for example if I come across a very undergeared tank who isn't very good that makes every pull a nightmare I say something like "bad gear and bad use of cds, you're making me work very hard for your shortcomings. Find another healer for this, I'm not dealing with it." and then I leave. No need for insults. Just say what's wrong, and go. It's a game. No one has to deal with other people's playstyles if they don't want to.

EDIT: just want to say that if I come across a bad tank with bad gear I do advise them to pull less or use their cds better, and if they refuse or simply cannot do it that's when I choose to leave the group.

[MsQi]

I don't like Rush much either, I'm not really into prog. rock

I don't like to rush either.

[Krotoan]

If someone knows they have limitations and decided to not let the party know, then as you said, they shouldn't be salty if they got kicked out of the party. The expectations however, those are set by the player base. I've said that in a previous thread that got deleted. If a content is done by a large part of the players in a certain way, this will set the expectations of the players doing it. For example, doing a dungeon usually takes 15-20min. No one queues to the dungeon expecting they will stay the full lockout. But doing BA on the other hand, you know you'll be staying for about 2hrs from forming the groups until it is cleared.

The extreme of the full duration run is an extreme rarity. As long as you have decent DPS and a tank that pulls serially, you're fine. Generally even a "slow" tank will be carried by DPS. I understand the majority of the playerbase "expects" a certain level of play. This does not make it right. That being said, nobody would blame you for votekicking this person if you didn't want to deal with it and they should not expect leniency simply because they refuse to change. In the case however that they did not want to change, there is nothing "wrong" with what they're doing.

So as for pulls, I rarely see a group doing expert with one pack at a time (except for week 1-2). And what drove me to think it's something a lot of players can do, is that I can do it and I'm a really bad tank. I don't even know my rotations nor did I even bother looking at them, since I don't play tanks in raids and trials. I leveled my tank mostly doing PVP. When I tried my luck in leveling roulettes, all I do is click any attack button I see that is an AOE. And before pulling, I just click a defensive cool down. And it seems that it worked fine for me doing two packs. I did wipe a couple of times, but when I asked the healers if it was something I did wrong, they said they weren't comfortable doing more packs so I did one at a time in those runs. So I'm pretty sure my play level is way below the average tank players. And this is during SHB, not SB where tank stance affected your DPS. I have mad respect to the tanks that can dish out massive DPS while holding enmity. I know for sure that I wouldn't be able to do that.

It is easily demonstrable that a relatively slight change in behavior is needed to accommodate 1 more pack. I am not arguing this. My point is that while to us it may seem minimal, it's very possibly beyond someone elses actual limits.

It's not "trying to fix people", it's trying to help them fix something they consider an issue that's preventing them from doing something that may very well be within their capabilities. Like for example if someone told me "I don't want to do dungeons through duty finder because I meet toxic people". I can easily tell them that they can report any toxic player. They say they have an issue, and I'm offering something that can fix that issue. Because as I stated above, all I do is click a button before a pull. It's not asking for an optimal play of a class. If the fix does require something like an optimal play, then I understand that some can't do that.

This is trying to "fix" how they play and how they perceive the game. I know that "you don't pay my sub" is a meme, but it's very loosely based on a truth: You aren't them, you don't get to say what they should/can do. You are asking them to change how they play because you think it's "Better". In this case I would agree your strategy and point of view are minimal changes and create a better experience.. however that's because of my goals and capabilities are probably similar enough to yours. Accepting that people will play/experience the game in a way that you hate or don't agree with, as long as they aren't harming anyone else directly, should be the norm. Offer your suggestions of course and ask your questions. But if you get a "No". Do not press. Remove yourself, or the player from the situation.