I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Raynn]

I don't feel like having easily accessible content in an MMO is a bad idea; I mean, it's how they keep the lights on, effectively. Appealing to a niche audience gets you a more fervent loyal fanbase, but doesn't bring in nearly as much money. MMOs gotta have broad appeal to keep running. There's nothing wrong with this, especially in a game where they have hardcore content to cater to the players that want it, without forcibly excluding casual players who don't.

Not everyone plays MMOs to do hardcore endgame raids and stuff. Some people just like hanging out, and those people pay the bills way more than the niche hardcore playerbase does. WAY more people play casually than don't, so the attitude that casual players are somehow hurting the game is just baffling. I can't think of too many "hardcore" MMOs that have thrived for any real length of time financially.

This is true in some regard as well. It’s one of the reasons it’s always confused me more developers don’t focus on community stuff like housing, events, ect. That’s fairly easy content to provide when compared to raid/trial mechanics and it keeps people playing.

Wildstar tried the ‘hardcore’ group push and it didn’t work out to well, despite being a fairly nice game (minus the 40 man, but then I think anything over 15-20 players is stupid as hell).

I also don’t think casuals should come in expecting to be carried thru harder content or whine about not having a certain item or mount. But the random LFG group, I don’t expect perfection. It’s also why I usually try to run with two to three friends when doing dailies roulettes if I’m pressed for time.

[jameseoakes]

I don't feel like having easily accessible content in an MMO is a bad idea; I mean, it's how they keep the lights on, effectively. Appealing to a niche audience gets you a more fervent loyal fanbase, but doesn't bring in nearly as much money. MMOs gotta have broad appeal to keep running. There's nothing wrong with this, especially in a game where they have hardcore content to cater to the players that want it, without forcibly excluding casual players who don't.

Not everyone plays MMOs to do hardcore endgame raids and stuff. Some people just like hanging out, and those people pay the bills way more than the niche hardcore playerbase does. WAY more people play casually than don't, so the attitude that casual players are somehow hurting the game is just baffling. I can't think of too many "hardcore" MMOs that have thrived for any real length of time financially.

Wasn't Wildstar suppose to be the anti casual MMO that would be for all the Hardcore players?

Edit:Raynn beat me too it on this one

[Nestama]

It's not really "hardcore" to do big pulls, though. In most dungeons I run as a DPS or Healer, the tank will always do big pulls (single pulling tanks being a minority and often adjust to big pulls when asked to). Shadowbringers made tanks extremely easy to play and gave some Jobs gained new AoE skills to use to make AoEing less obnoxious (especially for melee DPS, now that TP is gone).

Most don't expect you to be raid ready, either. The most I really expect out of anyone is to at least learn how to play their Job decently (no free-styling or doing whatever this DRG I got in E6N did: True Thrust > Disembowel and then Doom Spike > Sonic Thrust spam until Disembowel wore off... never did a full single target OR AoE rotation and often had broken combos).

[Raynn]

It's not really "hardcore" to do big pulls, though. In most dungeons I run as a DPS or Healer, the tank will always do big pulls (single pulling tanks being a minority and often adjust to big pulls when asked to). Shadowbringers made tanks extremely easy to play and gave some Jobs gained new AoE skills to use to make AoEing less obnoxious (especially for melee DPS, now that TP is gone).

Most don't expect you to be raid ready, either. The most I really expect out of anyone is to at least learn how to play their Job decently (no free-styling or doing whatever this DRG I got in E6N did: True Thrust > Disembowel and then Doom Spike > Sonic Thrust spam until Disembowel wore off... never did a full single target OR AoE rotation and often had broken combos).

But that all depends on the player. I’ve seen some people who have a hard time tanking/healing/killing a small three pack group. For them, larger pulls could be disastrous, as hard as that is to believe. But that’s why the LFG should never be the place to expect people to not be window lickers. That’s the ‘accessible’ content. Now if one of those individuals were in an extreme static....well feel free to boot them into next week if they can’t adapt.

[Nestama]

Yes, it depends on the player. However if someone is having legitimate trouble with just three mobs (in killing, healing or tanking) in level 80 content, then the problem lies with the player and it's something they should have fixed levelling up from 15-80 (or 70-80).

[Awha]

Funnily enough it doesn't even take that - as long as the tank and healer are alive and breathing you can double pull most everything as a bare minimum. You won't be cruising through Stone Vigil or doing the super pull at the end of Anamnesis, but you can probably do two packs as long as half your party is at least at the median skill level.



That's arguably true, for sure, though I (like to) believe people put in a basic amount of effort regardless of pack number. You can just zone out and lightly tap buttons every five seconds if you're single pulling, but I think most people would agree that's in poor taste to do with three other people.

To be honest, I am not sure. Thougb I do agree it is in poor taste, but I think for many it depends on how one frames why someone is doing single pulls. I do not think the why matters but for some it does.

[ItMe]

Tanking is the same whether you pull 1 pack or 3 packs. Tank stance on, AOE, use cooldown. Besides, tanks don't start level 80, you should have enough practice by that point.

No way man. There's a big difference in how you use your cooldowns depending on if you're saving them for the next pack, or chugging through them all cuz the miniboss is next and those are always easier to tank than mobs.
And you're right, tanks don't start at 80. But I've read more than enough posts on this forum about people grumbling about slow pulls in low level duties to know that doesn't really make a difference. When I was learning I was expected to PERFORM in ARR content and people would literally scold and mock me if I used grit.

No, I'm trying to say the bar is so low you don't need to be a tank master to achieve a large pull, so double pulling also is not an issue. If you are learning to tank, the best thing to do is to push your boundaries and not wallow in your comfort zone. The worst that can happen is you die, which is not a big deal, and you'll have learned something, pulling one pack because you're learning (especially if you're level 50+) is absolutely a detrimental attitude for yourself

Is there really no conceivable situation where someone might still pull less?
Perhaps they just ran this duty, and KNOW they can't manage more mobs, but still haven't levelled past it and are running it again.
Perhaps they see the healer is undergeared and pull slower. I know I've been there and still had a DPS still gets unhappy about the pace.
Perhaps they fucked up and actually need to slow down. Maybe they hit too many cooldowns before or hit one on accident and don't have the stuff to take another big pull.
Perhaps some people just don't learn by that trial by fire method and they want to ease into things with a more measured approach.
Yes, learning and pushing yourself are important, but that doesn't mean you're only option is big pulls.

[phantomr23]

No way man. There's a big difference in how you use your cooldowns depending on if you're saving them for the next pack, or chugging through them all cuz the miniboss is next and those are always easier to tank than mobs.
And you're right, tanks don't start at 80. But I've read more than enough posts on this forum about people grumbling about slow pulls in low level duties to know that doesn't really make a difference. When I was learning I was expected to PERFORM in ARR content and people would literally scold and mock me if I used grit.

I don't necessarily know about this - given the vast majority of dungeons in this game go 2 packs -> wall -> 2 packs -> boss you can kind of just do the same rotation of cooldowns regardless of what's happening. By the time most tanks have used all their cooldowns they probably have their shorter cooldowns coming back online, and in the worst case have their short, filler cooldown to kill time. Also, are you talking about pre-ShB, because if people were shouting at you for using grit in ARR content when it's the current tank stance I'd be absolutely baffled.

As for your other point, I think you and a lot of other people are conflating mega pulls with double pulls (I'd absolutely agree that a non-experienced tank or healer can take some of the massive pulls slower just in case). I don't know about other people but as long as tanks at least set double pulls as a baseline I'm happy, because double pulls aren't much harder hitting than single pulls. I've had both myself and a healer coming into Dohn Mheg at bare minimum gear and level and we still safely did two packs at a time.

[ItMe]

As for your other point, I think you and a lot of other people are conflating mega pulls with double pulls (I'd absolutely agree that a non-experienced tank or healer can take some of the massive pulls slower just in case). I don't know about other people but as long as tanks at least set double pulls as a baseline I'm happy, because double pulls aren't much harder hitting than single pulls. I've had both myself and a healer coming into Dohn Mheg at bare minimum gear and level and we still safely did two packs at a time.

Perhaps you're right.
I (and many others) might be conflating double and mega pulls.
I feel like that's part of what's leading to so much disagreement.
And I'm def with you on all this

I don't know about other people but as long as tanks at least set double pulls as a baseline I'm happy, because double pulls aren't much harder hitting than single pulls. I've had both myself and a healer coming into Dohn Mheg at bare minimum gear and level and we still safely did two packs at a time.

[linayar]

I don't agree that it's about learning while at level 80. Like I said, it's about playstyle preference. Nothing in the game says you have to pull more than necessary in a dungeon.

The problem with basing it off the guildhest is that that particular one is valid at... Lvl 10, when you have no real AoEs and a lack of ogcd healing and defensive cool downs.

There is also a lvl 40 guildhest which tells you everything needs to die at the same time. And how do you do that? The game is implying that for 5 mobs to die at once, you would be using AoEs.

You're talking about using AOE, not doing multiple pulls.

There is no scenario in the game that needs you to pull more than one pack in a dungeon.