I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Awha]

Its actually less buttons for me to aoe. I imagine that's the case for most jobs.

By effort I do not just mean buttons. In a single pull a tank can legit hit their AoE once or twice and tab out. No need to really avoid aoe damage, pop cooldowns hell even look at the screen.

I do not agree with single pulls, because they are boring as hell. Though in the grand scheme of effort put into single or larger pulls I would say single pulls due require far less effort and also could be done quicker with a melee dps probably.

[Raynn]

This idea in your head that the way you're told to play as a lvl10 in a tutorial duty is the way you should be playing at lvl80 is hilariously naive.

But that’s the baseline the game gives. We’re not talking about someone pulling a group at a time, maintaining threat, and that pull going fine. We’re talking about speed runs, completing content as fast as possible. While I agree it’s distressing to see how low the bar is set for the community in this game, using the LFG tool and expecting the best is like going to the DMV and expecting to be complete in less than 30 minutes. It won’t happen.

[Katie_Kitty]

But that’s the baseline the game gives. We’re not talking about someone pulling a group at a time, maintaining threat, and that pull going fine. We’re talking about speed runs, completing content as fast as possible. While I agree it’s distressing to see how low the bar is set for the community in this game, using the LFG tool and expecting the best is like going to the DMV and expecting to be complete in less than 30 minutes. It won’t happen.

No, that's the baseline the game gives for like lvl10. lmao.

[Raynn]

No, that's the baseline the game gives for like lvl10. lmao.

Then why don’t the developers make the groups larger instead of separate? If they weren’t separate then it would totally nix the problem. Yet every game does this. Because one group at a time is the baseline difficulty for the game, no matter how silly that is for the average player. I honestly don’t think you’re in the wrong, wanting people to be better at the game. I also don’t think pulling 2 groups together is ridiculously demanding, but to others it might be.

Going into a randomized group, we accept that risk as much as someone accepts the risk they may get a player who wants to complete the content faster than normal. Either way, I don’t think booting them right away is the right answer. And I don’t think the individual receiving constructive criticism should take it like a personal insult. But I also don’t think we should expect much from random people because much like life, it’s a mixed bag.

[ReiMakoto]

Then why don’t the developers make the groups larger instead of separate? If they weren’t separate then it would totally nix the problem. Yet every game does this. Because one group at a time is the baseline difficulty for the game, no matter how silly that is for the average player. I honestly don’t think you’re in the wrong, wanting people to be better at the game. I also don’t think pulling 2 groups together is ridiculously demanding, but to others it might be.

Going into a randomized group, we accept that risk as much as someone accepts the risk they may get a player who wants to complete the content faster than normal. Either way, I don’t think booting them right away is the right answer. And I don’t think the individual receiving constructive criticism should take it like a personal insult. But I also don’t think we should expect much from random people because much like life, it’s a mixed bag.

After running min item level dungeons with some of my friends i really struggle to think that one pack is the baseline, even with the notorious ones like doma castle we were able to double or more pull each time and the healer still spent most of their casts casting dps and not healing. If the baseline is one pack i would expect one pack to pose a threat to people with the worst gear possible for that dungeon, which outside of the colossus before the first boss in doma, thats simply not the case.
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[phantomr23]

Competency from all 4 players.

Funnily enough it doesn't even take that - as long as the tank and healer are alive and breathing you can double pull most everything as a bare minimum. You won't be cruising through Stone Vigil or doing the super pull at the end of Anamnesis, but you can probably do two packs as long as half your party is at least at the median skill level.

In the strictest sense more packs due require more effort and attention because for single pulls one barely has to do much of anything to perform their role.

That's arguably true, for sure, though I (like to) believe people put in a basic amount of effort regardless of pack number. You can just zone out and lightly tap buttons every five seconds if you're single pulling, but I think most people would agree that's in poor taste to do with three other people.

[Raynn]

After running min item level dungeons with some of my friends i really struggle to think that one pack is the baseline, even with the notorious ones like doma castle we were able to double or more pull each time and the healer still spent most of their casts casting dps and not healing. If the baseline is one pack i would expect one pack to pose a threat to people with the worst gear possible for that dungeon, which outside of the colossus before the first boss in doma, thats simply not the case.
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That’s the problem with the mass appeal of MMOs these days. The lowered standard of what the baseline could be. Unfortunately, despite whatever one thinks about the game, WoW opened the MMO door to a lot of people that probably struggled in single player games on the lowest difficulty levels. In order to reach a wider audience (therefore generating more profit) developers have approached the LFG being catered to the lowest common denominator.

It’s why overland content (for the most part outside of S/S+ rank hunts) is a snooze fest. It’s why things like hard, savage, extreme, mythic, legendary game content exist. Diving into the very bottom of that pile and expecting output at a higher level is a lesson in futility. And I get where you’re coming from. I wish I could back to the days where the majority of people were willing to put in the work to actually be competent in the games they play. Where they took pride in their effectiveness and the effort invested. But like all things that attempt to reach a wide audience, the quality suffers.

Which is silly because in order for a game to be considered ‘profitable’ (unless you invest a level of equity like SWTOR or Star Citizen) you only need a solid 300k subscribers. But those numbers don’t compare to the ‘WoW phenom’ which is considered the standard these days instead of the fluke it was.

[phantomr23]

Which is silly because in order for a game to be considered ‘profitable’ (unless you invest a level of equity like SWTOR or Star Citizen) you only need a solid 300k subscribers. But those numbers don’t compare to the ‘WoW phenom’ which is considered the standard these days instead of the fluke it was.

To be fair, in the case of FFXIV specifically I suspect Square Enix has a very high standard given the value they place upon the Final Fantasy brand. I don't have any evidence of this but I suspect the higher-ups at the very least expect the game to be in roughly the same ballpark as WoW subscriber wise, or perhaps just in line with the closest competition in Japan.

[Raynn]

To be fair, in the case of FFXIV specifically I suspect Square Enix has a very high standard given the value they place upon the Final Fantasy brand. I don't have any evidence of this but I suspect the higher-ups at the very least expect the game to be in roughly the same ballpark as WoW subscriber wise, or perhaps just in line with the closest competition in Japan.

Fair point, especially when looking at the Asia market. The numbers that lineage and BDO get in that area are significant as well.

[Shofie]

I don't feel like having easily accessible content in an MMO is a bad idea; I mean, it's how they keep the lights on, effectively. Appealing to a niche audience gets you a more fervent loyal fanbase, but doesn't bring in nearly as much money. MMOs gotta have broad appeal to keep running. There's nothing wrong with this, especially in a game where they have hardcore content to cater to the players that want it, without forcibly excluding casual players who don't.

Not everyone plays MMOs to do hardcore endgame raids and stuff. Some people just like hanging out, and those people pay the bills way more than the niche hardcore playerbase does. WAY more people play casually than don't, so the attitude that casual players are somehow hurting the game is just baffling. I can't think of too many "hardcore" MMOs that have thrived for any real length of time financially.