I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Eli85]

The problem is not the size of the pulls. The problem is the inability to cooperate and negotiate. All those healers and DPS can simply write: "Please pull more." I don't see a big problem in slowing down if my tank cannot take more. And I don't see a problem in asking to pull more if they can handle it. Just don't have to force people.

The problem with this logic is, one shouldn't have to negotiate for basic competency. Tank pulling slowly is the same thing as a BLM playing as the infamous ice mage. It should not be an unreasonable expectation that the BLM should at least know their rotation, instead of stubbornly only using 2-3 of their weakest spells and nothing else. Same thing goes for pulling. Incoming damage in a dungeon is an absolute joke, and if the tank does not pull big, we should not have to negotiate for a non-miserable experience.

[RajNish]

Tank pulling slowly is the same thing as a BLM playing as the infamous ice mage.

Following this logic, as a more experienced player, you can give advice or ask to do big pulls, instead of running ahead and forcing, making the game stressful. Do you feel the difference?

There are people on the other side of the monitor too. They may not know something or not be able to. But this is not a reason for pressure, it is a reason to start a dialogue.

[Eli85]

Following this logic, as a more experienced player, you can give advice or ask to do big pulls, instead of running ahead and forcing, making the game stressful. Do you feel the difference?

There are people on the other side of the monitor too. They may not know something or not be able to. But this is not a reason for pressure, it is a reason to start a dialogue.

If the tank is not showing basic competency, no, I'm not going to offer advice; I'm going to force the issue. Again, no one should be asking for, negioiating, or whatever else, basic competency. If a tank cannot demonstrate basic competency, they should do us all a favour and not queue.

[MistakeNot]

If the tank is not showing basic competency, no, I'm not going to offer advice; I'm going to force the issue. Again, no one should be asking for, negioiating, or whatever else, basic competency. If a tank cannot demonstrate basic competency, they should do us all a favour and not queue.

Doing big pulls is not showing basic competency. It is showing impatience.
Players who insist on big pulls should do the tanking themselves - that way they get to decide the size of pulls.

[Eli85]

Doing big pulls is not showing basic competency. It is showing impatience.
Players who insist on big pulls should do the tanking themselves - that way they get to decide the size of pulls.

No, it's basic competency. Most tanks do employ basic competency. Those who do not make it miserable for the rest of the group. Why should the tank be more important than the rest of the group?

It's not about competency. I's about the comfort of the group. If you don't want to talk to people to ensure yours and their comfort and prefer stress, well, I'm sorry for you.

It is nothing to do with comfort. The tanks that do single pulls are playing the game very, very badly. You do not want to justify bad play, ever.

[Vahlnir]

No, it's basic competency. Most tanks do employ basic competency. Those who do not make it miserable for the rest of the group. Why should the tank be more important than the rest of the group?



It is nothing to do with comfort. The tanks that do single pulls are playing the game very, very badly. You do not want to justify bad play, ever.

The one thing you are leaving out is circumstance and points of view. Is the healer capable? Are the dps able to put out reasonable numbers? A lot of the time it takes an outside perspective to see such things. I'm all for large pulls, I sort of have to be, not that I have an issue with them anyway. However, a good tank also needs to learn how to read a room. Big pulls mean nothing if your healer and dps is subpar for pulls like that. And like I said, that is a bit easier to see from the outside looking in. Your default argument is "small pulls bad, big pulls good, git gud scrubs or git out". That's nice, how about you take various factors into account? It's not as black and white as you think.

[Eli85]

The one thing you are leaving out is circumstance and points of view. Is the healer capable? Are the dps able to put out reasonable numbers? A lot of the time it takes an outside perspective to see such things. I'm all for large pulls, I sort of have to be, not that I have an issue with them anyway. However, a good tank also needs to learn how to read a room. Big pulls mean nothing if your healer and dps is subpar for pulls like that. And like I said, that is a bit easier to see from the outside looking in. Your default argument is "small pulls bad, big pulls good, git gud scrubs or git out". That's nice, how about you take various factors into account? It's not as black and white as you think.

In this game, you don't need any high skill ceiling DPS and healers to pull it off. You just need players who are not complete turds. Middling healers and DPS will not cause problems with large pulls. I do most of my Expert Roulette as my WHM, and even with big pulls, unless I fall asleep on the couch or lag out, the tank never dies. I've even been in groups with sub-par DPS, and nothing ever comes close to a wipe.

This game is not hard. It's brain dead easy on everything not named Savage. Big pulls should never be a stressful experience for any tank, unless they literally have no clue what their buttons do.

[MistakeNot]

No, it's basic competency. Most tanks do employ basic competency. Those who do not make it miserable for the rest of the group. Why should the tank be more important than the rest of the group?

It is nothing to do with comfort. The tanks that do single pulls are playing the game very, very badly. You do not want to justify bad play, ever.

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.


Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.
Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.
Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

[WaxSw]

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.


Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.
Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.
Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

Good tactics maximize the resources you have without risking the clear therefore why pulling big is actually a good habit, enemies are weak so in order to get the most out of your tools you must take as much as them as possible making the healers less likely to overheal, getting more value out of aoes and getting more value out of % mitigation

Small pulls renders either tanks or healers unnecessary (for example you can single pull as healer with 2 dps all the pulls of grand cosmos and anyder), that is not a good resource management and therefore the tactics that relies on those are less efficient and worse overall

[LittleImp]

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.

If your skill level is holding you back from being able to handle big pulls, you are incompetent.
If you and your party are both capable of handling large pulls and you still refuse to do it, you're still incompetent but in a different way.

Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.

Exploiting the weakness of your enemies for efficiency is good game-play, not sloppy tactics. Players are adapting to the way the game is designed to maximize the value of their time invested. If you have a problem, blame the devs not the players.

Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.

Dungeons are completely static in this game. You aren't going to queue up for Copperbell Mines one day and get your face punched in by a dragon that wasn't there yesterday.

Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

There is also an extremely minimal amount of risk involved in the vast majority of large pulls, as the skill requirement to execute big pulls is extremely small.

In a game with daily rewards and static completion rewards, time essentially has direct value. If you spend 5-10 minutes extra in each of your dungeon roulettes, it can actually add up pretty quickly across the span of a week, especially if you're adding that time for essentially no reason.

Big pulls are an extremely accessible step any player can make that nets them a huge amount of saved time vs effort involved.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

What exactly is 'Chaos' and how is it bad?