"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Kolsykol]

The reason you don't see as many threads in other games is because the casual community in this game actively looks down on anyone who doesn't conform to their "lol it's just a game bro" ideals. They take great pride in stumbling through the game THEIR way, and damn you if you offer any adv- I mean, criticism and public humiliation. Look at the little collective we have in the thread. They'd be more then happy to bring everyone down with them.

Wait.

Doesn't that have a term?

Elitism: Consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

Looks like the casual crowd and the elitist were one in the same the whole time! /meme

This really just sounds to me like you should choose your company better.
Play with people of the same mindset as you then?

In random groups tho it's quite silly to expect people to just conform to what you want.
But I really have no clue who you're playing with because people who don't make an effort are a rarity in my experience.
I mean for all of this ranting about how important mass pulling is 99% of my groups do mass pulls. If anything people are forced to conform more to your mentality and way of playing the game.
I've also never seen anyone react negatively to advice or tips, but the way that you type makes me think that you're probably not being very polite when you do...

And as Penthea said, I think that being a flexible player is a sign of a good player...
Just being a stick that snaps as soon as it bends makes you a weak player imo.

[Absurdity]

This really just sounds to me like you should choose your company better.
Play with people of the same mindset as you then?

In random groups tho it's quite silly to expect people to just conform to what you want.
But I really have no clue who you're playing with because people who don't make an effort are a rarity in my experience.
I mean for all of this ranting about how important mass pulling is 99% of my groups do mass pulls. If anything people are forced to conform more to your mentality and way of playing the game.
I've also never seen anyone react negatively to advice or tips, but the way that you type makes me think that you're probably not being very polite when you do...

I get the feeling that there is quite a big difference between the data centers and that this problem isn't nearly as prevalent on EU than it is on NA DCs. I saw my fair share of "meh" players back in Stormblood, "specific non-english language only" paladins were a bit of a meme for a reason, but I've only had maybe 2 instances in ShB where someone was so bad that I had to seriously question how they made it to 80 in the first place. Even when I had a duty finder group that performed "below average" the dungeon took maybe 30 instead of 15 minutes at max, none of the 60+ minutes horror stories.

[Goji1639]

I've played a good number of MMOs in my time online and XIV is the only one among then where bad players and bad play is quite literally paraded around as something to be praised, which is something that absolutely happens in a large percentage of this game's community. Maybe parts of the community wouldn't reduce other parts of the community to a 'meme to be mocked', as you say, if such ridiculous things weren't the norm around here.

It's not paraded or praised; people just don't care as much because the content is easy. Most other MMO's have more difficult endgame content, so things do tend to be a little more serious.

The people throwing a sad little tantrum every time an instance takes an extra 5-10 minutes are just annoying. They're a minority of players that probably got laughed out of the few Savage runs they tried, so now their only claim to elitism is being the guy in roulettes who calls out casual players. It's just pathetic.

[Penthea]

Ya wanna know why I don't offer advice anymore? Because 90% of the playerbase NEEDS help and I just don't have the time. 90% of the playerbase does not care about carrying their weight, doing the minimum, etc.

This makes me wonder what you define as "needs help". Is it "oh god their rotation is basically non existent" or "they missed a few ogcds and their uptime could be better"?

90% is a really big number, and I'm going to give you an anecdote in response to yours: I most certainly do not find that 90% of the playerbase are in need of help in dungeons.

Does that mean I say I don't find that 90% of players could improve? Of course not. Almost anyone can improve. But just because you can improve doesn't mean that the group needs a player to tell you what could be better. If things are dying quickly, no one is experiencing great difficulty, no one is being carried and the dungeon isn't taking too long...then what's the problem?

Unless your data centre has a horrifically low average level of skill then I think you must be exaggerating how many players in dungeons need intervention from someone such as yourself in order to play at an acceptable standard for that content. It is exceptionally rare for me to find a player in a dungeon and think "dear god they need guidance". At most I usually think "eh, could be better" and just get on with my life.

It appears a lot of people here seem to think that being "good enough" for the content isn't acceptable for the simple fact that it is possible to play better.

Also I would like to add that no one knows the background of some random person. You don't know if they haven't played that class in ages, if they boosted the character so they have had less experience to draw from, if they have had a bad day, if they have lag, if they're disabled so their skill ceiling might be lower than someone else's. It's not always a simple case of someone not trying enough.

[Bopsheezi]

90%, what a load of Chocobo dung! Whatever. If it's that high, why would I bother please the measly 10%?

The hyper casuals are annoying, but the elitists are so much worse.

[Melichoir]

It's not paraded or praised; people just don't care as much because the content is easy. Most other MMO's have more difficult endgame content, so things do tend to be a little more serious.

This raises a question of whether the reason content is easy cause the devs want it to be easy or they're dumbing content down because players refuse to improve. Im not saying dungeons need to be extreme, but it would be nice if bosses and mobs actually were a threat if you didnt have people paying attention. Worst that happens is someone dies and the fight takes longer.

[QUOTE=Goji1639;5392520]The people throwing a sad little tantrum every time an instance takes an extra 5-10 minutes are just annoying. [QUOTE=Goji1639;5392520]

The extra minute or two doesnt piss most players off. Maybe makes the impatient ones more frustrated cause "things to do". But I tend to see far more frustration at lazy play than time spent. As long as it's not an hours worth of time, people dont mind taking a little longer to complete a dungeon if the people are putting effort in. But what aggravates people is when it's clear a player is under performing and not doing anything to address it. Cause then it's taking longer to do content not cause of inexperience, but because of lazyness.

They're a minority of players that probably got laughed out of the few Savage runs they tried, so now their only claim to elitism is being the guy in roulettes who calls out casual players. It's just pathetic.

Yeah, the odd truth is I see more toxicity from the guy who thinks theyre super good cause they installed ACT and found out they were top dps or something in Cinder Drift EX. The people who are actually upper tier vets generally arent elitist cause they dont have to prove anything, and most new players are pretty humble. Its the casual/midcore players that I tend to see toxicity because they expect tryhard raid strats to be good. Again to reiterate, all we need is just decent effort and play. Its a win if I see a dps do a half decent rotation, avoid AoEs, and properly burst down mobs or bosses. Or if I see a tank use reprisal when a boss casts an aoe that hits everyone. Things like that.

[Vahlnir]

This raises a question of whether the reason content is easy cause the devs want it to be easy or they're dumbing content down because players refuse to improve. Im not saying dungeons need to be extreme, but it would be nice if bosses and mobs actually were a threat if you didnt have people paying attention. Worst that happens is someone dies and the fight takes longer.

With how they've developed the game I think it's a pretty easy to see that their goal was to have a very casual MMO experience. FF XIV is definitely one of, if not the most casual MMO I have ever played, and there's no doubt in my mind that it was by design. It isn't a bad thing, but I do think it makes the more "hardcore" crowd a bit more serious about performance when the game is, by and large, an easy game to play. Difficulty may be relative to the player, but compared to many other games on the market (especially MMOs) it is...easier than most. That's a simple fact.

[Bopsheezi]

This thread has killed any hope I've had in the community to come together.

Don't you all see you're only pushing people further and further away?

[Vahlnir]

This thread has killed any hope I've had in the community to come together.

Too late for that anyway, so....



Here we are. An endless, vicious cycle.

[Penthea]

The thing about good enough is simple: Why would anyone settle for "good enough to clear" when they could have "good enough to carry?" How about "good enough to know I've done my best."

You don't get to decide that other players should have this mindset when they're a bunch of strangers in normal mode content. If you're doing casual content expect casual players. Manage your expectations.

I know that you take pride in your performance. I always try my best as well. But I don't force, expect or need other people to conform to my personal standards when their performance is acceptable for the level of content we're doing. I don't pay their sub and I'm not their fc leader. I don't have a right to dictate how they play if there aren't any problems causing someone to work very hard and carry someone else. You don't have to be maximising up-time and using ogcds super well in order to complete normal mode in a timely manner. Being good enough...is good enough.

It feels like if you just chilled out and adjusted your expectations and needs to the level of content that you're doing then you would be much happier with your DF experiences.

For me it is enough to know that I did a good job and that no one else caused problems.