"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Lucy_Pyre]

So my DPS rotation is the problem when the pull fails in the first 30 seconds because the tank or healer dies? Gotcha, awesome note. You clearly know what you're talking about. Elite veteran player with super sharp instincts.

Claiming that the tank or healer insta-dies every time a big pull fails is nothing more than being facetious because you and I both know that's anything but the truth of the situation. Sometimes big pulls fail because the tank is an idiot that doesn't use cooldowns. Sometimes they fail because the healer is watching Netflix on their second monitor instead of healing. Yet, sometimes as well it fails because the tank and healer cycle through all of their respective cooldowns, only for the pack to still be quite alive because the DPS are garbage and the ranged/caster just decides to save LB for next expansion.

[Goji1639]

Claiming that the tank or healer insta-dies every time a big pull fails is nothing more than being facetious because you and I both know that's anything but the truth of the situation. Sometimes big pulls fail because the tank is an idiot that doesn't use cooldowns. Sometimes they fail because the healer is watching Netflix on their second monitor instead of healing. Yet, sometimes as well it fails because the tank and healer cycle through all of their respective cooldowns, only for the pack to still be quite alive because the DPS are garbage and the ranged/caster just decides to save LB for next expansion.

From my experience it's almost always the tank and healer. They're the 2 who both need to be on the same page, and if the tank doesn't use his CDs right or the Healer starts healing too early/too late, it's done. THAT happens a lot.

As for that pull failing because of DPS, I've honestly never seen it. Hell, I've done that Anyder pull successfully with a Trust. DPS aren't THAT important if both the Tank and Healer don't mess up.

[Melichoir]

From my experience it's almost always the tank and healer. They're the 2 who both need to be on the same page, and if the tank doesn't use his CDs right or the Healer starts healing too early/too late, it's done. THAT happens a lot.

As for that pull failing because of DPS, I've honestly never seen it. Hell, I've done that Anyder pull successfully with a Trust. DPS aren't THAT important if both the Tank and Healer don't mess up.

Yes and no.

Yes, technically with how more recent dungeons are designed, dps can afk to some extent and tanks and healers (if theyre competent) can mange it. However there are caveats to this: Some of the dungeons have hard hitting mobs mixed in with the regular trash. Even if your tank and heals are on the same page, you can run out of CDs and healing potential even if both are on the same page and die to being overwhelmed by the large pack pull + hard hitting mobs. It is possible to die to a large pull cause the DPS are not killing things fast enough for the pull size. Ive seen it happen enough, particularly in back to back large pulls.

Beyond that, 2-3 packs can be a lot depending on pack size and composition. In Grand Cosmos, you can only pull 9 mobs total before the first 'gate', and that is considered a big pull because the damage out put is pretty high despite it being a pack of six and a pack of 3. You could be in trouble as a tank and healer if the dps afks when you pull all 9 as you may run out of CDs before defeating enough of the pack to survive on regular healing with no CDs.

[Lucy_Pyre]

From my experience it's almost always the tank and healer. They're the 2 who both need to be on the same page, and if the tank doesn't use his CDs right or the Healer starts healing too early/too late, it's done. THAT happens a lot.

As for that pull failing because of DPS, I've honestly never seen it. Hell, I've done that Anyder pull successfully with a Trust. DPS aren't THAT important if both the Tank and Healer don't mess up.

About the kind of response I expected from you of all people, the person who parrots the idea that you should always divert blame and not accept resonsibility for your own failures.

[Goji1639]

About the kind of response I expected from you of all people, the person who parrots the idea that you should always divert blame and not accept resonsibility for your own failures.

Blame yourself for everything, even when it doesn't make sense. The next time a big pull fails because the tank dies in 20 seconds I'll acknowledge my Ninja was to blame. Again your instincts are spot on. So elite.

snip

Well, if the DPS are flat out not participating then anything can become a problem. Even with minimal participation from DPS, though, damage isn't really an issue. The healer and tank, on the other hand, have very specific things they need to do to not botch a massive pull. It's much easier for them to fail and wipe the group, and that's what happens most frequently.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Blame yourself for everything, even when it doesn't make sense. The next time a big pull fails because the tank dies in 20 seconds I'll acknowledge my Ninja was to blame. Again your instincts are spot on. So elite.

Nah, I'm just calling out your outright lies that it's *never* the fault of the DPS when things go wrong.

[Vahlnir]

Nah, I'm just calling out your outright lies that it's *never* the fault of the DPS when things go wrong.

Honestly, I thought you'd have learned by now that engaging them is a waste of time. That's why I stopped. But...most times it does indeed fall on the tank and healer, though I would still say it's a team effort regardless. Even the best of tanks and healers can't handle a large enough pull indefinitely. That is where it falls to the dps to bring everything down before it gets out of hand. Both the tank and healer only have so many CDs they can burn through in the span of a couple minutes. If the dps is lacking it isn't impossible for it to take that long, if not longer. And when the dps simply isn't there...best to take it slow. Everyone has to adapt at some point or another to their current situation.

[Goji1639]

Nah, I'm just calling out your outright lies that it's *never* the fault of the DPS when things go wrong.

I didn't say it's never their fault; I'm saying I've never seen that big pull wipe from lack of DPS. The Tank and Healer by far play the most important roles in a massive pull; even good players could potentially make a mistake that wipes the group. Whereas with DPS it would take 2 exceptionally bad ones for them to actually cause the wipe. That's just far less likely to happen.

[Penthea]

I would say at least from my personal experience that chain pulling is the standard. That being said how a chain pull is done and how difficult or easy it is to get through it isn't standardised because different players have different levels of skill and experience, have different habits, sometimes people make mistakes and not everyone has the exact same gear.

There are so many variables that can make the same content feel totally different with different groups. Certainly as a healer I experience this a lot. I can very quickly tell if the tank knows what they're doing and is confident about it. The only time I feel legitimate consistency from repeated trips to the same dungeon are when I'm doing the content with my friends.

And no I'm not allergic to single pull packs. I prefer chain pulls unless the tank clearly cannot handle it and/or if the dps is just too low to make it a logical decision. If a tank doesn't chain pull I simply say "you can pull more if you like" and if they don't it's very whatever for me. I'd rather take things slower than place stress on a person whose gaming background I'm completely unaware of. I don't know if a random person hasn't tanked in ages, has only recently begun to do it, etc.

[Vahlnir]

I would say at least from my personal experience that chain pulling is the standard. That being said how a chain pull is done and how difficult or easy it is to get through it isn't standardised because different players have different levels of skill and experience, have different habits, sometimes people make mistakes and not everyone has the exact same gear.

There are so many variables that can make the same content feel totally different with different groups. Certainly as a healer I experience this a lot. I can very quickly tell if the tank knows what they're doing and is confident about it. The only time I feel legitimate consistency from repeated trips to the same dungeon are when I'm doing the content with my friends.

And no I'm not allergic to single pull packs. I prefer chain pulls unless the tank clearly cannot handle it and/or if the dps is just too low to make it a logical decision. If a tank doesn't chain pull I simply say "you can pull more if you like" and if they don't it's very whatever for me. I'd rather take things slower than place stress on a person whose gaming background I'm completely unaware of. I don't know if a random person hasn't tanked in ages, has only recently begun to do it, etc.

Personally, I'm less cautious in max level content. But in leveling roulette for example I tend to take it slow and then ramp things up when I get a feel for the group. With lvl 80 dungeons I usually just mass pull straight out of the gate. I suppose everyone has their own approach. I've only ever had one complaint since becoming a GNB main, thankfully, and that was just a salty healer blaming their lack of healing on someone else. So I must be doing something right. People are a lot less timid when it comes to blaming the healer or tank.