"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[KalinOrthos]

Exactly. Offering advice is an invitation for stronger cooperation, so everyone win if it is received well. This is still the case, even if ultimately there is not a clear. Why? Because people learned.

There are cases where advice is incorrect, but it is better to be polite in reaction than not.

I know there's a strong element of an incredulity fallacy in my rant, but the idea of "it's rude to give advice" is so hilariously backwards, especially when some of these people are turning around and giving advice themselves. They aren't actually opposed to advice, they're opposed to getting it, and the only reason I can think of why that is, is because they think they're free from criticism by virtue of their conceit.

[Melichoir]

As long as people leave the elitism for the content that actually does require a certain amount of knowledge/skill to complete I don't have an issue with that attitude since it's being served to people who already subscribe to that mindset.

There's really no room for it in DF content like leveling dungeons though. If you want to go for the world's fastest Sastasha speed clear then queue with your FC, don't harass the sprouts.

And almost no one is advocating that a sprout needs to be playing like a Savage Tier Raider. That would be ridiculous. It is coming to an agreement of what the baseline should be and helping people reach that baseline. A proper baseline is you use your abilities and kit to a moderate level of effectiveness. So AoE on mob packs, cast a Dia or something if you dont need to heal, use Rampart to mitigate damage in big pulls where you take a lot of damage. Simply achieving this level of play would go a loooooooooooooooooooong way IMO in improving relationships among the player base, particularly between savage and casual players.

[Arngrim_Greyashe]

Things that aren't intended to be rude can still be rude.

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

You're comparing apples to oranges, my friend. I can see you're stuck in a sense of self righteousness and that's fine. You do you, but I think your take on this is misguided. In the past, people in this game welcomed help. Heck, they still do. It's a small minority that actually don't. It's easier to be open to feedback than to hide from something as innocent as "Hey, you're doing a great job! Here's a fun trick about your class, in case you didn't know!" If that offends you, you may want you consider sticking to single player content or games.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Yeah, great for you. I was literally the top player for my class in the game I played before coming to XIV (SWTOR) and I don't even remember how many people I taught how to play my class, whether it be answering questions people posted on a guide for it that I wrote or directly sitting down with people in-game and spending multiple hours teaching them directly. I mean, sure, I had my "you're trash, git gud" moments like anyone else. It was PvP after all. But the point I'm making here is that just because you or your friends were toxic doesn't mean that everyone that's good at X or Y class also is. You're projecting pretty hard.

I never said everyone is- in fact I pretty clearly said that there were some that were good at explaining things in the part you didn't quote. As well- I'm pretty sure someone asking for advice on your guide or spending hours with you in game isn't seeking unsolicited advice, and as I pointed out there's a big difference between giving unwanted, unpleasant advice to someone who doesn't want it, and giving constructive advice to someone who has asked for it.

Now the ones you were calling trash and telling to git gud probably saw you as a toxic player giving 'polite advice'.

[KalinOrthos]

It would be rude to interject yourself into a conversation, even if well meaning, that you have no part of and put up advice that is unsolicited. In fact with private matters like 'bedwetting', it probably would be considered rude to do it even in private if you are not invited into the conversation to begin with.

But were not talking about that. We're talking about being in a co-op environment where input is expected and desired between people who are sharing a direct explicit mutual goal (in this case, completing content.)

May I add to this?

Goji is once again going for false equivalence here. His scenario is outlandish and frankly absurd. A better real world counterpart would be a group of people getting onto a bus, and there's one guy who outs his feet up onto the seat and puts his backpack in the middle of the aisle. When he's told to help make room for others, he reacts either indignity and rage or completely ignores it. That's a much closer real world parallel to what we're talking about: someone who is an active asshole to the people around them entirely for their own ego.

[StriderShinryu]

As long as people leave the elitism for the content that actually does require a certain amount of knowledge/skill to complete I don't have an issue with that attitude since it's being served to people who already subscribe to that mindset.

There's really no room for it in DF content like leveling dungeons though. If you want to go for the world's fastest Sastasha speed clear then queue with your FC, don't harass the sprouts.

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

I know there's a strong element of an incredulity fallacy in my rant, but the idea of "it's rude to give advice" is so hilariously backwards, especially when some of these people are turning around and giving advice themselves. They aren't actually opposed to advice, they're opposed to getting it, and the only reason I can think of why that is, is because they think they're free from criticism by virtue of their conceit.

Surely you can see the difference between what's happening in this thread and what happens in game right?

We're on a public discussion forum, assuming that people are here for a public discussion isn't exactly a far stretch since that's the purpose of the forum. If someone quotes you they're requesting a response. In terms of social cues, discussing things is something we all agree to by posting here.

But why do people do dungeons? Gear and XP? Enjoyment of clearing content? Finishing a quest? To improve and better yourself as a player? There's multiple reasons that players join the DF, most of which don't involve getting better as players, and there's a considerable number of players who aren't concerned with becoming the best players in the game. There's a pretty easy way for players who are concerned with being the best of the best to avoid them- premades- and there's also a pretty easy way for players that want to improve to get better- say 'I'm looking for advice' at the beginning of a group. The one thing people agree to by joining a dungeon is working to finish the dungeon- so someone who is afk or basically not filling their role (ie a healer that only spams damage abilities) isn't doing that.

Unsolicited advice stems from players with certain desires shoving that onto players who don't share those feelings, often in a very unpleasant way. That doesn't mean you can't give constructive advice in a helpful and friendly way, nor does it mean that there's not a just as massive cadre of unpleasant casual players as there are elitists. But I can guarantee that most of the people here saying they only give polite, constructive criticism yet also get constantly kicked from groups or told their being jerks aren't as good at teaching others as they think they are.

[KalinOrthos]

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

There hasn't been a single person here who has demanded Savage-level play. In fact, the unanimous opinion seems to be, while it would be nice, expecting and demanding it from your peers is seen largely as an asshole thing to do and be. In fact, all of us agree that that's frankly toxic and not conducive to furthering the conversation.

Instead, what we're asking for is a competence baseline. In your analogy, yes, Savage raiders are the professional swimmers jumping into the public pool, but no one is expecting laps from the public; if you're going to get in the pool, at least learn how to swim before waterwalking to the deep end so you don't end up having to get rescued.

I'm still astonished at the level of false equivalence on display in this thread.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

You forgot about the part where both Olympic swimmers and the kiddies joined a group competition and each swimmer's performance affects the whole group.

No player is more special than the next one, that they can decide to do less and ride on the performance of others, even if the game doesn't require it.

[Melichoir]

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

The analogy is wrong. It would be more like Olympic level weight lifters moving a heavy boulder that the group needs to move, and the other 3 people are busy picking roses, napping, or climbing on top of it to hinder the lifter.

While that is hyperbolic in the nature of elites carrying the casuals, It should be noted that some dungeons and content would be drastically more difficult for the average player if you removed the top third of the player base, because even players that are moderately experienced and at the level that I (as others) are suggesting can carry poor players through even basic content. And this is part of the issue - the game should force players to improve to a moderate level and not rely on moderate and better level players to complete content, but the devs keep pushing the skill floor down. That just trains players to play poorly or not invest in improvement because there is little reason to do so.