"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Zsolen]

Statements like this (probably unintentionally) are one of the reasons this world is so divisive right now. It is akin to "if you don't want to stand for the National Anthem, maybe you should move to another country!" It takes any form of discussion and mutual respect and throws it right out the window. The issue isn't who is more "toxic", there is toxicity on both sides. The issue is how do we come together as a diverse player base to reach the goal we all share which is to enjoy our time playing a game we love as much as possible.

This is not a political forum. Saying an mmo may not be suitable for someone that will not listen to others is not the same as telling someone to leave their country of citizenship. I will never understand people's need to inject politics into everything, and this is coming from someone well-versed in the social sciences.

It is not toxic to kick someone for making things harder on the party purposefully. Offering advice is inclusive, but people that are stubborn should be removed.

[Kamome-chan]

It is akin to "if you don't want to stand for the National Anthem, maybe you should move to another country!"

No it's not

You don't decide where you're going to born and therefor your National Anthem

You however decide or not if you want to follow an advice and improve.

[Kanjien]

This is not a political forum. Saying an mmo may not be suitable for someone that will not listen to others is not the same as telling someone to leave their country of citizenship. I will never understand people's need to inject politics into everything, and this is coming from someone well-versed in the social sciences.

It is not toxic to kick someone for making things harder on the party purposefully. Offering advice is inclusive, but people that are stubborn should be removed.

So kick them, I didn't argue what was toxic or not. But telling them they shouldn't be playing a game is toxic. And I wasn't really being political because I did not choose a side in the debate, I was using a real world example of the fastest way to derail a communication.

[Zsolen]

So kick them, I didn't argue what was toxic or not. But telling them they shouldn't be playing a game is toxic. And I wasn't really being political because I did not choose a side in the debate, I was using a real world example of the fastest way to derail a communication.

Telling who? I never said that to anyone. I just said in general people that don't want to cooperate might want try to another game.

GIVEN:
-MMOs are based upon cooperation.
-Certain people do not want to cooperate.

Solution:
-Maybe they should try a game that does not have cooperation as a core element.

That is simple problem solving. It is not up to me to tell someone if they can sub or not; however, it is clear that those that do not wish to cooperate should not play mmos. It's a suggestion.

[Kanjien]

Telling who? I never said that to anyone. I just said in general people that don't want to cooperate might want try to another game.

GIVEN:
-MMOs are based upon cooperation.
-Certain people do not want to cooperate.

Solution:
-Maybe they should try a game that does not have cooperation as a core element.

That is simple problem solving. It is not up to me to tell someone if they can sub or not; however, it is clear that those that do not wish to cooperate should not play mmos. It's a suggestion.

You just said it on this forum...if you don't listen to me and follow my advice then you shouldn't play this game. Who are you to tell anyone what game they should play? A better suggestion would be "if you don't take my advice you will not improve and you will not be able to sample the higher and more rewarding content in the game". Not confrontational and leaves the door open to discussion. If then the person is rude and defensive they deserve to be kicked. No mutual learning can be had by putting someone on the defensive right out of the box.

[Zsolen]

You just said it on this forum...if you don't listen to me and follow my advice then you shouldn't play this game. Who are you to tell anyone what game they should play? A better suggestion would be "if you don't take my advice you will not improve and you will not be able to sample the higher and more rewarding content in the game". Not confrontational and leaves the door open to discussion. If then the person is rude and defensive they deserve to be kicked. No mutual learning can be had by putting someone on the defensive right out of the box.

Please point out who on this forum I said should play another game. Name the specific person. I just explained further what I was saying. Maybe reread what I typed. I said "maybe" meaning it is still up to them. I don't see why an uncooperative person would want to play an mmo.

Please stop emphasizing that I tell people to play another game in the game itself. I never have.

[KalinOrthos]

Been reading through this thread and one of the absolute most baffling arguments I'm seeing is this idea of "it's rude to give advice". I can't imagine a single country, region, state, or even city that might have this sort of mentality. It's honestly such a conceited point of view that the only context I can even fathom is if you come from a family, not a town or city, but a family of conceit. They are never taught how to handle criticism because their parents never learned how. They take every comment against them as a personal attack because they're so ingrained in "my way only" mentality that for them it is a personal attack. This is the player at your D&D sessions, when you ask them to stop rules lawyering the DM, that goes into a rage. This is the Karen who gets filmed on camera publicly freaking out when they're told they don't don't sell the thing she wants.

The biggest advice, ironically, I can give to these people is grow up and get out of your bubble. Yes, there are assholes on the internet. Yes, those assholes are in the wrong when they attack your bad play. But when a person levies advice at you at how to play better, how about you stop entrenching yourself in your conceit and listen? You are playing with 3/7/23 other people, and your unwillingness to improve is affecting their experience as well. You are not special so stop acting like it. "Just be better or we'll kick you" is not the same as "If you use Holy more alongside healing, we'll be able to clear these faster, I can take a few hits", and conflating the two only serves as a strawman to muddy the waters.

[Zsolen]

Exactly. Offering advice is an invitation for stronger cooperation, so everyone win if it is received well. This is still the case, even if ultimately there is not a clear. Why? Because people learned.

There are cases where advice is incorrect, but it is better to be polite in reaction than not.

[Melichoir]

Advice is criticism; I'm not flopping between them, I'm simply using the words interchangeably because they are interchangeable. Both are outlining negative performance, and it's inconsiderate criticize a negative in public. A critique in public could be inconsiderate if the critique is negative; but the rule is to address positives in public and negatives in private. That's the etiquette that's generally expected when working with other people.

You are flopping because your response about advice and criticism was in response to me saying Criticism, Critique and Advice are different and you made no distinction (in fact it appeared you were endorsing the concept they were the same.), but now are saying there is a difference...as long as you subjectively decide its a positive critique.

In what I was refering to, I was pointing out that context matters, regardless of the 'positive/negative' aspects of it because you cant control that on the receiving end. Furthermore, you are saying critique and criticism are different because criticism is always negative where critique can be positive. However, that relies on the critique only being positive (which is subjective). A critique which analyzes a person's shortcomings can be seen as a criticism (or it seems you are implying that it is indeed criticism). And this is all dependent on how the person receiving it takes it. Let alone you either are suggesting that there is no such thing as a 'negative' critique', or that any critique which can have negative connotations shouldnt be mentioned...which again falls back to "How the receiver feels about it" issue.

Which gets back to the point that I keep making but you refuse to acknowledge: You cannot control how other people think or take something, and when there are other considerations to be made outside assuming the feelings of someone else, it makes no sense to 'advise' people in private. It is better to speak freely, but politely, and let the other person decide what to do with it. The idea that it is 'inconsiderate to provide critique, advice, or feedback' in team based environment is not what is expected when working with other people. It is counter productive. This isnt the same as 'calling someone out', which puts pressure and potential shame on a person by identifying a problem and demanding a response/reasoning behind it, or at the least an immediate change in action or they will suffer overt consequences.

You not being able to control what people think doesn't matter. What you're basically saying is that people can interpret anything in any way, so etiquette doesn't exist. That's ridiculous; the fact that people can still take offense at a more polite approach doesn't negate the value or purpose of being polite.

No, I did not suggest that etiquette doesnt exist cause you cant control other people's thoughts. I said specifically you cannot control how other people think, but you can control your side of the equation.

...You only can control what you say and do, you cant control how the other person feels and acts in response. If they think your rude, or become upset, or throw it back in your face, thats on them (so long as youre not being overtly unreasonable or rude - ex: "God you suck so much. Git gud or uninstall you loser!")

Was one of the first things I posted in the thread. Our disagreement isnt about being polite or choosing your words carefully. It is about the manner and time when presenting critique, advice, and the like. The general stream of thought is that you never say anything to anyone in party chat because its rude. Instead remain silent or tip toe around it, wait til after the duty ends (for whatever reason), and be overly polite and cautious. This isnt the same thing as being polite but direct in the moment and addressing issues as you see them in a team based environment.

You are arguing that this approach is rude because you personally define it as rude out of fear that you may embarrass or hurt hte feelings of another person, where I am arguing that rudeness is a bit subjective and dependent on the other person - something you cannot control for. So it makes no sense to beat around the bush and avoid dealing with something right as it is (albeit politely) because you cant guarantee that you wont be seen as rude even if you wait til afterwards. So rather than just letting the issue persist, you attempt to address it, for everyone's sake involved.

As for believing it can be better to be rude than to be quiet in some situations, that obviously depends. If it's critical then courtesy may need to take a backseat to urgency; if the healers not healing or the tank isn't in tank stance then say something. If you want to note that someone's not playing optimally, or is being lazy, in a non-urgent context, though, then address it in private. Simple stuff.

And here we go: You are in agreement with me then about addressing issues as you see them. Courtesy be damned if its about fixing a problem you see. Now its only a matter of hashing out the details and what is and isnt urgent. As we've been stating, the position isnt that a player needs to be Min/Maxing DPS, 100% uptime, Savage strats. This isnt what is being asked for (broadly, I know some people would prefer this but I even understand there is a limit to what is expected in casual content). However, Not using CDs, Not AoE in pack pulls, standing around doing nothing are all play issues that are not from lazyness and lead to more urgency. As an example, a tank who does not use Cooldown but wall to wall pulls dies, thus wiping the entire party and wasting peoples time. If dps dont aoe, pack may die too slowly and wipe as the healer runs out of resources to maintain the tank and wipe the group, wasting time and effort. Healers who rely only on healing and nothing else might end up causing the group to fail a DPS check and wiping the group (this applies more to extremes and Savage, admittedly, but Ive wiped on the burn because healers have stood around and done nothing). Even worse is seeing healers literally spam one kind of heal and nothing else despite what is going on (the medica 2 meme is real).

Basic play strategies that players should be implementing not being done cause "I cant be bothered" isnt acceptable when the consideration for other player's time and efforts are to be taken into account. These arent next level try hard, savage raid strats. These are basic play ones that we are advocating for.

And just for good measure cause this is ridiculous and I actually addressed this kind of thinking:

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

...You can say you have an issue with something between two parties that are not related. For example, if I were to be sitting there in Limsa and see a chat about having difficulty on F14 e5s and I chime in and say x, y, and z, you can say that was unsolicited and not welcome. It could be interpreted as rude. Well meaning or not, I am not part of that discussion or situation and do run the risk of being intrusive.

It would be rude to interject yourself into a conversation, even if well meaning, that you have no part of and put up advice that is unsolicited. In fact with private matters like 'bedwetting', it probably would be considered rude to do it even in private if you are not invited into the conversation to begin with.

But were not talking about that. We're talking about being in a co-op environment where input is expected and desired between people who are sharing a direct explicit mutual goal (in this case, completing content.)

[Sated]

As long as people leave the elitism for the content that actually does require a certain amount of knowledge/skill to complete I don't have an issue with that attitude since it's being served to people who already subscribe to that mindset.

There's really no room for it in DF content like leveling dungeons though. If you want to go for the world's fastest Sastasha speed clear then queue with your FC, don't harass the sprouts.