"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Sated]

As long as people leave the elitism for the content that actually does require a certain amount of knowledge/skill to complete I don't have an issue with that attitude since it's being served to people who already subscribe to that mindset.

There's really no room for it in DF content like leveling dungeons though. If you want to go for the world's fastest Sastasha speed clear then queue with your FC, don't harass the sprouts.

[Melichoir]

As long as people leave the elitism for the content that actually does require a certain amount of knowledge/skill to complete I don't have an issue with that attitude since it's being served to people who already subscribe to that mindset.

There's really no room for it in DF content like leveling dungeons though. If you want to go for the world's fastest Sastasha speed clear then queue with your FC, don't harass the sprouts.

And almost no one is advocating that a sprout needs to be playing like a Savage Tier Raider. That would be ridiculous. It is coming to an agreement of what the baseline should be and helping people reach that baseline. A proper baseline is you use your abilities and kit to a moderate level of effectiveness. So AoE on mob packs, cast a Dia or something if you dont need to heal, use Rampart to mitigate damage in big pulls where you take a lot of damage. Simply achieving this level of play would go a loooooooooooooooooooong way IMO in improving relationships among the player base, particularly between savage and casual players.

[StriderShinryu]

As long as people leave the elitism for the content that actually does require a certain amount of knowledge/skill to complete I don't have an issue with that attitude since it's being served to people who already subscribe to that mindset.

There's really no room for it in DF content like leveling dungeons though. If you want to go for the world's fastest Sastasha speed clear then queue with your FC, don't harass the sprouts.

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

You forgot about the part where both Olympic swimmers and the kiddies joined a group competition and each swimmer's performance affects the whole group.

No player is more special than the next one, that they can decide to do less and ride on the performance of others, even if the game doesn't require it.

[Melichoir]

Largely yes. We can dance around the polite/not-polite, advice/harassment, elite/casual, whatever arguments for days (and some people have) but that long ago reached the point where we've kind of forgotten the actual game. The fact is, the game is built in such a way as to not require even average level play from it's players in a large portion of it's content. There's also not much of an on-ramp or teaching system to take players from Step 1 to Step 10 (and even if there was, the content that requires it is segregated and locked off on it's own). Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

The analogy is wrong. It would be more like Olympic level weight lifters moving a heavy boulder that the group needs to move, and the other 3 people are busy picking roses, napping, or climbing on top of it to hinder the lifter.

While that is hyperbolic in the nature of elites carrying the casuals, It should be noted that some dungeons and content would be drastically more difficult for the average player if you removed the top third of the player base, because even players that are moderately experienced and at the level that I (as others) are suggesting can carry poor players through even basic content. And this is part of the issue - the game should force players to improve to a moderate level and not rely on moderate and better level players to complete content, but the devs keep pushing the skill floor down. That just trains players to play poorly or not invest in improvement because there is little reason to do so.

[Daibunnie]

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

Yes, aoeing a group of adds or dpsing as a healer are clearly ultimate levels of play.

Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

I really don't understand this comment. You're saying there's nothing in the game that compels people to play better, but you had all those complaint threads on content such as Thunder God, Mist Dragon, Aurum Vale, and even the 3 buttom msq instance in stormblood to which they were either nerfed or received an easy mode option. Not to mention, savage/ultimate content is always available.