"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

The only one calling it picking a fight is you, because you consider it a nuisance. Funny how you say I'm only doing it for myself when you just basically admitted that "I don't care about your complaints so shut up and stop whining". You're only against because at a basic level, you know you're the same as the person needing to receive advice. You consider it rude and a nuisance because you consider it an attack on your playstyle.

Ofc they do. Picking up the slack is a win-win for everyone involved, including the slacker.

Trying to vote kick me would imply actually being on the duty, and not having been already kicked for differences of playstyle due to slacking off. ;-)

I'm against it because 2 people arguing isn't helping finish the run. All it's accomplishing is letting you work out your frustration at "carrying" someone, while the person you singled out gets defensive. The only winner in that situation is you; because you got to pick at someone who made you mad. The rest of us get to sit around watching 2 people uselessly snipe at each other.

So, like I said, pick fights on your own time. You're not doing anyone else any favors.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I'm against it because 2 people arguing isn't helping finish the run. All it's accomplishing is letting you work out your frustration at "carrying" someone, while the person you singled out gets defensive. The only winner in that situation is you; because you got to pick at someone who made you mad. The rest of us get to sit around watching 2 people uselessly snipe at each other.

So, like I said, pick fights on your own time. You're not doing anyone else any favors.

Except my point isn't picking fights. It's giving advice so that in a 4 person team, there's not only 3 people giving significant contribute.

And like I said, you're only calling it picking a fight because giving advice to underperformers for some deep seated reason bothers you at a fundamental level.

Not to mention that, if the person heeds the advice, not only will you save time in the current run but also any future runs the person runs will be significantly shorter.

[Goji1639]

Except my point isn't picking fights. It's giving advice so that in a 4 person team, there's not only 3 people giving significant contribute.

And like I said, you're only calling it picking a fight because giving advice to underperformers for some deep seated reason bothers you at a fundamental level.

Not to mention that, if the person heeds the advice, not only will you save time in the current run but also any future runs the person runs will be significantly shorter.

Giving advice in public bother me, because it singles out 1 person in front of the group and picks a fight.

Giving advice in private doesn't bother me, because it's far less likely to make the other person defensive and pick a fight.

Criticizing people in public is bad manners, and bad manners cause issues in groups. If someone in the group is intent on causing issues I'd prefer them gone.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Giving advice in public bother me, because it singles out 1 person in front of the group and picks a fight.

Giving advice in private doesn't bother me, because it's far less likely to make the other person defensive and pick a fight.

Criticizing people in public is bad manners, and bad manners cause issues in groups. If someone in the group is intent on causing issues I'd prefer them gone.

Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

[Goji1639]

Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

I mean, it's one thing for you all to be like this in a game, but I really hope you're not doing this kind of thing to people at work or in real life social situations. I'm starting to think the reason there's so many communication issues in this game is that a lot of you honestly have no earthly clue how to interact with people.

Edit: Mentoring is a different situation entirely. If you're positioned as a teacher in what's positioned as a classroom then it's socially acceptable to offer criticism without much formality, in your defined role as teacher.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

I mean, it's one thing for you all to be like this in a game, but I really hope you're not doing this kind of thing to people at work or in real life social situations. I'm starting to think the reason there's so many communication issues in this game is that a lot of you honestly have no earthly clue how to interact with people.

No, criticizing people in public is only claimed as rude by the people receiving criticism. Because obviously they want to avoid being criticized any way they can. Antisocial people don't get to claim the rules of communication.

There's so much communications issues in this game because people don't want to communicate and any attempt at it is considered a personal attack. Pretty much what you're advocating here.

Communicating doesn't mean "agreeing with everything I do and say and don't ever criticize me".

[Goji1639]

No, criticizing people in public is only claimed as rude by the people receiving criticism. Because obviously they want to avoid being criticized any way they can. Antisocial people don't get to claim the rules of communication.

There's so much communications issues in this game because people don't want to communicate and any attempt at it is considered a personal attack. Pretty much what you're advocating here.

Communicating doesn't mean "agreeing with everything I do and say and don't ever criticize me".

You can criticize; either privately or as a mentor if you want to teach in an official capacity.

The problem is that you criticize people in a rude way and expect a positive response. Put in the effort to be polite and things might turn out different for you.

[Daibunnie]

No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

I find it laughable that you're calling communication in a mmo bad manners.

Mentoring is a different situation entirely. If you're positioned as a teacher in what's positioned as a classroom then it's socially acceptable to offer criticism without much formality, in your defined role as teacher.

Lmao as if the burger king hat is an indicator of someone being able to "teach." You know why a good chunk of people choose to be a mentor? To get access to the roulette for the free mount eventually.

[Goji1639]

I find it laughable that you're calling communication in a mmo bad manners.



Lmao as if the burger king hat is an indicator of someone being able to "teach." You know why a good chunk of people choose to be a mentor? To get access to the roulette for the free mount eventually.

I don't call all communication in MMO's bad mannered; just the bad mannered stuff.

Also, the hat doesn't indicate someone is qualified to teach, it just indicates that they've been assigned as a teacher. When you've been assigned to be a teacher then you have authority to teach; which changes the social etiquette of delivering criticism.

False. You can give feedback to a player that may be struggling to grasp their class in a dungeon without it coming off as rude. It's not rude to try and help people. There's no bad manners about it. I ask my groups if there's anything I can do to improve at the end of a dungeon. Sometimes they leave complements, constructive feedback, or just say nothing at all! We as players shouldn't be afraid of constructive criticism. If it's mindless name calling? Sure, that's rude and bad manners. But to simply offer some advice that could be helpful? I find it helpful. I found out many neat tips from other players because they felt like sharing.

Things that aren't intended to be rude can still be rude.

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

In theory, yes, a respected, respectful person giving good advice in public is fine when they've been chosen for that role through a long path of education and training, which includes sensitivity. But even teachers, the people most qualified to give good advice, don't read out people's assignments in front of the class while pointing out every flaw, and when they do go over problems in assignments most of the time it's anonymously.

Problem is, the 'good' players in MMOs are neither qualified or chosen to give good advice. It's unwelcome advice to begin with, and it's almost always given in the worst way possible. Half the time it doesn't have anything of value and is just meant to insult or shift the blame, it's generally just a way for people to point a finger at someone and say 'that guy is the reason we are failing'. The reason players tend to look so negatively at people giving 'criticism' in games is experience; players in this thread can try all they want to portray those that give 'advice' in game to the bads as saints, but the reality is in game it's rarely done in a way that's even remotely pleasant, and it even more rarely actually contains useful advice.

I'm not going to say it can never happen- but rudely given criticism or straight out player bashing is so common in multi player games that I can't really fault anyone who thinks the norm of bad faith 'advice' is the norm- because it's the norm.

If you have a common problem of giving 'criticism' but not realizing that you're coming off as rude, chances are pretty good that you're regularly offering useless advice in a rude manner. It's sadly the norm for poor social skills to think that your way of communicating with others is the right way when you're pissing everyone off. Communication isn't a one way street, but the person giving 'advice' seems to always think that it is in MMOs. Keep in mind when you call someone out for doing something wrong, or failing in some way- you're doing it for yourself to let off steam, not to actually help the other person- and it's obvious, and that is part of why people can't stand you when you do it.