Please Add Daily Challenge for Rival Wings and The Feast

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

you can't just magically *make* people do PVP. even if you add a daily challenge thing - you'd have to incentivize it first which would only attract people from the PVE crowd for a very short time. eventually the mode will die off and you'll be back to square one. Square enix can't find a solution to pull people into a mode because they're not willing to pull resources into suddenly more PVP - they're far too busy making more PVE stuff.

Who says ppl from the PVE crowd aren't just sleeper PVP enthusiasts? You can't just say "it won't work because it attracts PVE players" if you don't see if they will even stick with PVP. If it does not work, then we at least TRIED.

Also I am a bit dumbfounded how making a copy-paste of the Frontline thing and replace the duties with Astragolos + Hidden Gorge for RW and The Feast (Training) for the other would take a lot of resources. And I don't think they set up their Duty Finder duty list so complex that adding two let alone one extra challenge would be unfeasable.

[Tlamila]

Rival Wings pops every Saturday evening on every DC.

False. On Chaos it hasn't been popping at all ever since they started reorganizing it.
And even if it did, you really think that having only one hour a week to play is good enough? really?

I really don't understand all this opposition really. How would getting PvErs into PvP and making it pop ruin PvP compared to PvP not being there at all because it never pops?
FL pops because of the huge xp bonus from the roulette, otherwise nobody would do that either. And honestly, it's the worst mode, it's not even pvp, it's just run around and capture stuff trying to avoid combat the most possible. But it's all we have really.

Hell, to be honest nobody would ever repeat pve content either if not for roulettes. The reason people are being given these huge rewards is to make stuff pop. So yes, pvp also needs similar incentives for it to pop.

[DrWho2010]

Who says ppl from the PVE crowd aren't just sleeper PVP enthusiasts? You can't just say "it won't work because it attracts PVE players" if you don't see if they will even stick with PVP. If it does not work, then we at least TRIED.

Also I am a bit dumbfounded how making a copy-paste of the Frontline thing and replace the duties with Astragolos + Hidden Gorge for RW and The Feast (Training) for the other would take a lot of resources. And I don't think they set up their Duty Finder duty list so complex that adding two let alone one extra challenge would be unfeasable.

Trying something that ultimately fails is a waste of resources and money (see how dead Lord of Verminion is). Also love the backseat coding philosophy that most people on this forum seem to have. and honestly how many more EXP/tome acquiring options do we need?

[Kezzic]

You still don't get it. PvP isn't popular in this game. [...] no-one cares. [...] It is literally something you have to accept playing this game [...] MMORPG PvP is awful [...] memes like WeIRd FlEx and take accurate assessments of your arguments like some kind of pseudo attack and then have the audacity to cry about discussion quality in a scene you know nothing about that people who have been a part of it for years are trying to educate you on. Please lmfao.

I do get it. I understand Square Enix doesn’t support their PVP scene. That’s the thing I don’t understand about you, you’re trying to condescendingly educate me like I’m some kind of out of touch mongoloid— I GET IT, it’s not that hard to understand— and guess what, I’VE BEEN AROUND, I’m not a new player. Your defeatist attitude isn’t helping anything.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and you’ve already agreed a Daily Challenge would be a good start to addressing the issues of PVP in this game, the first of which namely being population. You continuing to return to my thread and harass me about how “little I know about this community” has degraded the thread to the point of needless ad hominem attacks. You’re not educating anyone, the least of which educating me, you’re just being mean spirited and quite frankly, toxic.

To bring this back into focus here, no MMORPG PVP is not awful, in fact it’s one of the most enjoyable time-sink activities for end-game players you can have beyond clearing hardcore PVE progression content. Black Desert Online, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft all have engaging PVP. You can argue about balance, design, and player engagement all you want, but these MMOs have PVP communities that dwarf FF14’s in both scope and support, clearly evidence of non-awful MMORPG PVP.

To be quite frank, I think the most recent iteration of FF14’s PVP is functional. It’s stripped down, sure, but I’m not even arguing for overhauls and redesigns. Keep the stripped down skillsets, keep the whole system design. Do I miss the old PVP system? Yes, but that’s not what I’m posting about. I just want more players playing, right now, in the status quo.

To reiterate— I’m not here to advocate anything but the simple addition of the other two PVP modes to the Daily Challenge. It’s not going to hurt anything, it can only help.

[BloodRubyXII]

That’s the thing I don’t understand about you, you’re trying to condescendingly educate me like I’m some kind of out of touch mongoloid— I GET IT, it’s not that hard to understand— and guess what, I’VE BEEN AROUND, I’m not a new player. Your defeatist attitude isn’t helping anything. not educating anyone, the least of which educating me, you’re just being mean spirited and quite frankly, toxic.

If you're not out of touch then you're beyond any reasonable level of naive; especially since you don't even know the meaning of the word toxic. You constantly say you get it, only to directly contradict yourself by supporting your suggestion with concepts that would be suggested by someone who really doesn't. I mean MMORPG PvP not being awful? Cmon dude. Good luck. I literally run a community which are probably the only reason Light 4v4 ranked is even still active across all tiers - because we want people to keep playing and get involved in the mode and not be left in the cold because they weren't here in the first few weeks, but keep telling me I'm defeatist. You make all these wild assumptions I've called it quits when I literally get my fingers into every pie clutching onto the thin hope that things will improve, the hypocrisy coming from you is actually unbelievable and it's audacious to claim otherwise. Primal and Crystal's communities have also been working hard. Stop taking everything and an aggressive attack (systematic trait of this game's community btw ) and realise it's because we care a lot.

False. On Chaos it hasn't been popping at all ever since they started reorganizing it.
And even if it did, you really think that having only one hour a week to play is good enough? really?

I really don't understand all this opposition really. How would getting PvErs into PvP and making it pop ruin PvP compared to PvP not being there at all because it never pops?
FL pops because of the huge xp bonus from the roulette, otherwise nobody would do that either. And honestly, it's the worst mode, it's not even pvp, it's just run around and capture stuff trying to avoid combat the most possible. But it's all we have really.

Hell, to be honest nobody would ever repeat pve content either if not for roulettes. The reason people are being given these huge rewards is to make stuff pop. So yes, pvp also needs similar incentives for it to pop.

Aight, I'll take your word for it, but Chaos members in Reign posted pictures of themselves playing RW at least the weekend just gone. In which case, you are the odd ones out.

E: You were right btw, the Chaos members playing were on their Light alts lol. That's really disappointing

"How would getting PvErs into PvP and making it pop ruin PvP compared to PvP not being there at all because it never pops?"
I mean you're asking people to do an activity, they don't really want to do purely for the rewards that benefits them outside of said activity, that is not a good model to work with.

[Kezzic]

If you're not out of touch then you're beyond any reasonable level of naive; especially since you don't even know the meaning of the word toxic. You constantly say you get it, only to directly contradict yourself by supporting your suggestion with concepts that would be suggested by someone who really doesn't.

More ad hominem attacks that do nothing to progress this conversation, and serve only to be mean spirited and demeaning.

"How would getting PvErs into PvP and making it pop ruin PvP compared to PvP not being there at all because it never pops?"
I mean you're asking people to do an activity, they don't really want to do purely for the rewards that benefits them outside of said activity, that is not a good model to work with.

Your premise is flawed. Your black/white dichotomy of “there are PVP players, and then there are PVE players” is naive and narrow-sighted. You assume there are simply two pools of players, pure PVP players and pure PVE players. This is simply not true, and frames the status quo as if people don’t queue for whatever they feel like playing at the time. Whatever you want to include as the reward is irrelevant to the fact that a Daily Challenge would boost PVP queue populations. It’s just a fact. You saying that “PVE” players queuing for PVP would degrade the experience is ridiculous. New players are necessary to your sacred format. Your gate keeping is what is killing the scene you allegedly claim to be propping up all on your own. *clap clap* You’re a hero, champ.

You are the one here that is confused, and your attitude to those that disagree with you is inflammatory, and hostile. You have done nothing to contribute to this thread but prance and prattle about your in-game know how, and have since continued to be braggadocious that you are the sole reason The Feast is populated. Stop taking everything as an attack? Stop making targeted arguments about people to make your point and instead why don’t you support your contentions based off of the merit of your arguments. It’s not a trait of the community, it’s clearly a trait of any person you interact with, because you’re aggressively adamant that everyone around you is some layman that can’t possibly understand what your in-group purports. Take some time to reread everything you’ve written here and really reflect on your impact on this thread.

[BloodRubyXII]

Snip

Precursor to this post, please respond in actual English that someone hears on a day to day basis, I really don't want to go through google translator everytime I gotta read one of your posts because someone bought you an Oxford dictionary for christmas. It's not my first language, half the time I can't understand half of what you're saying because you want to put the simplest of words across in a super elaborate manner, idk if this is a humble flex on being well educated or not but it's really annoying when A) you're trying to have a discussion with someone B) You want to actually respond to them without being incredibly frustrated because you're not sure if you're being understood.

Ironically, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I invite you to come and spend a day with us and go through all the logs you want, you realise how hard we're trying and how many times we're literally trying to batter it into the collective SE mind (considering one of their CMs is in Paissa and is the best hope we have of communication) what we need for this activity to work. They care, else they wouldn't continue patching it. It's just they don't know what direction they really want. Let me know what you want me to do to turn "allegedly" into "actually is happening". That's not a brag, that is because you called me defeatist like I've given up on the modes/activity, which is fundementally untrue.

OT again, making stuff that I've apparently written up as you go along, I do both for the record, I love raiding, I love PvPing. That doesn't mean everyone is the same as me, some only want to do one of the other, and the vast majority of this community, want to PvE. There has never been any question of daily challenges boosting PvP activity, it always has done, it always will. It only takes a hairstyle to make people play this mode. The issue I have with your whole concept is one that never ever really got addressed. PvP is not enjoyable. Sometimes even the rewards aren't even man, people ask me "hey where's that mount/hair/armor etc" from and the moment I mention it's PvP, even their lust for glams isn't enough to overcome how little they enjoy PvP. The problem is (and please prove me wrong, maybe we can actually have a discussion that doesn't involve you hopping on the defensive for 90% of the post, losing the 10% of your post that addresses it) you will probably argue that's a subjective opinion and the reason people don't do it is because they have nothing to gain.

I have nothing to gain from PvPing really, that's of significance. I own the mounts, I'm ladder safe on multiple chars, but those were never the reasons I touched the PvP modes, I do it because it's fun. I don't celebrate the tome events because I want the stuff from the vendor. Christ man I don't even care if I lose, it's because I absolutely adore rival wings and clutch onto whatever bait is laid out for me to be able to play it for even just a few hours. There was nothing sadder than the queues outlasting me in Feb-April (ie still popping after I went to bed, not literally sending me to bed) because I knew it was never going to last once everyone got what they wanted from the vendor. I don't have over half a dozen NA/JP chars because I want to play there with 250+ ping dude, it's because I don't want to be limited to the 3-4 hours a day PvP happens to be active on my region. That for me, absolutely blows and I hate it so much.

Basically this is a really long winded way of me saying the mode needs to be enjoyable because we can even talk about rewards that just extend the life support this activity is on. That is literally all I've ever been trying to tell you all along, but I don't feel like you understand this and that is why I repeatedly tell you you don't. It's not because I'm trying to treat you like some kind of dick man, when will you get it lol; trust me, if I didn't think this was worth the effort, I would have never replied to you, it's because I'm still hoping that you won't just see where I'm coming from, but address the points directly instead of using the initial concept you put forward as an argument. Some of my earlier points were about how it's not constructive for the activity, a point which I also don't think you understood, if you did, reiterate, because all you did was take it as some kind of attack.

To readdress that point is short as possible because this is already a mammoth of a post but I'm trying to cover a lot, the reason why I keep saying elaborately "you have no idea what you're about" which imo, you respond to way more aggressively than I put that across to you; is because that is what years of queueing PvP game modes and having people just outright afk or throw matches because the modes aren't fun, but there's stuff they want from it and when you try to get them to play properly its "man im just here for the exp". From what I understand you want the modes to be more active; assumably because you want to PvP right? The part we aren't going to agree on is the "at all costs" measures you seem to want to take to get there, like sod it if the matches suck, at least it pops. Which on the flipside is something I don't want again. Not because I'm extremely toxic and hostile, but because it is absolutely unenjoyable to PvP when people on your team would clearly rather be doing anything else, but need their dailies done. I don't care if I lose, but I at least wanna have fun.

[Kezzic]

Precursor to this post, please respond in actual English that someone hears on a day to day basis [..] idk if this is a humble flex [...]

No, it’s not a flex, and I apologize if I said anything you didn’t understand— vocabulary-wise. Honestly, I didn’t even think about it as I wrote it, it was stream of consciousness. I’ll chill out.

But also going forward, I’m just going to ignore all the needless ad hominem BS, which you continue to include. Tip: it’s anytime you divert the argument and use the word “You”. The way you argued in general throughout your posts derailed the conversation to focus on how you were speaking. You seem frustrated I am so defensive, surprise I was frustrated too with the way you forced me to eschew from the matter at hand. You actually addressed some key points that are at the root of our disagreement, so I’ll carry on— but honestly it didn’t have to be like this to make your argument.

I do both for the record, I love raiding, I love PvPing. That doesn't mean everyone is the same as me, some only want to do one of the other, and the vast majority of this community, want to PvE.

And I would argue that the vast majority don’t play PVP because it’s not highlighted or incentivized at all. We don’t actually disagree here, and you and I both want the same thing. People don’t just want to only play PvE. I’d say they just don’t want to play FF14’s PVP because of how it’s designed. (The same flaws you mention— I don’t disagree)

There has never been any question of daily challenges boosting PvP activity, it always has done, it always will. [...]

Cool, we agree there. The part that we disagree about is at the bottom.

PvP is not enjoyable. The problem is you will probably argue that's a subjective opinion and the reason people don't do it is because they have nothing to gain.

I don’t disagree with you. PVP is not in a good state, I’d even take old-PVP system back at this point. But a complete overhaul of PVP doesn’t have to predate adding the Daily Challenges. Honestly it’s a drop in the bucket, but at least I’d be able to play these damned modes. I’ll elaborate more below because this bleeds into our disagreement.

I don't want to be limited to the 3-4 hours a day PvP happens to be active on my region. That for me, absolutely blows and I hate it so much.

Neither do I. Now imagine being on a data center with significantly less activity than that. Imagine how desperate I am for any PVP outside of Frontlines. I too have played for years, and even in the sorry, neglected state that PVP is in, I still want to play Rival Wings and The Feast. I literally can’t outside of 1 day of the week, during a specific timezone’s peak hours. We agree here.

[Kezzic]

having people just outright afk or throw matches because the modes aren't fun, but there's stuff they want from it and when you try to get them to play properly its "man im just here for the exp".

Yeah, that’s garbage and toxic behavior, and they shouldn’t be in that queue. But people do the same thing in PvE queues in Praetorium/Leveling Roulette/PotD/etc. it’s not a problem unique to PVP queues. Even so, that doesn’t happen often— at least on my data center, in the Frontlines matches I play. Though I’m sure that the few times it does happen, it spoils the bunch.

The part we aren't going to agree on is the "at all costs" measures you seem to want to take to get there, like sod it if the matches suck, at least it pops. [...] it is absolutely unenjoyable to PvP when people on your team would clearly rather be doing anything else, but need their dailies done.

This is the part where I think we have a fundamentally different perspective because you have the privilege of a semi-active data center and a community to throw matches together with. But it isn’t a zero-sum game here. If they add Daily Challenge modes for PVP, you aren’t going to suddenly have these modes swarmed with unmotivated players who are going to sandbag every queue you find yourself in. I do think Square Enix needs to redesign their PVP scene to be more nuanced and rewarding. I do not think a Daily Challenge will fix the PVP scene.

I do however want to be able to simply queue and play these existing modes. At the moment I can’t. I understand the reasons why that you repeatedly told me “I didn’t understand”. It’s a multifaceted issue, stemming from just being a poor PVP scene in a PvE focused game. I get that. But in the time-being, let me play the dang gimped PVP version that already exists. I’m not going to create throwaway characters on JP servers or other Data Centers when they could simply just make a stupid-proof queue on the front of their Roulette page for players to see when they go down their dailies list.

[BloodRubyXII]

Neither do I. Now imagine being on a data center with significantly less activity than that. Imagine how desperate I am for any PVP outside of Frontlines. I too have played for years, and even in the sorry, neglected state that PVP is in, I still want to play Rival Wings and The Feast. I literally can’t outside of 1 day of the week, during a specific timezone’s peak hours. We agree here.

Yeah I understand this, I may do both activities, I mean I love this game to the point I have a ridiculous amount of clears on even just expert dungeons and normals, think I already mentioned it. Just love everything about the game. But I'd be lying if I said I wouldnt queue for Onsal at 2pm in the afternoon or 3am in the morning on EU if I could. The worst part is that queue on Light always dies at 10 ST on a weekday. Knowing this is depressing. Because it opens up with the roulettes reset at like 3 ST. I raid or play feast from around 6 to 9. So by the time all that's done I might get an hour of Onsal because it always dies at 10. The thing about the daily challenge is, I might still have this issue; like - independent of match quality or anything like that I might still not actually get more games.

There aren't any of your other points I can address at this moment, because I think you've addressed everything I wrote perfectly and there's no part of your reply I could say different or don't agree with. Like you said, we won't agree on the last point, but I totally understand that you will gladly take what you can get in activity because at this point you just wanna play. I feel bad for people who work like a 2-10PM or something. This is the only MMO that I've played that "goes to sleep". I can log on SWTOR at 5am and get a PvP match. I'll get stomped by a premade, but at least I can play.