Please Add Daily Challenge for Rival Wings and The Feast

[Kezzic]

There are few flaws with your suggestion:

1. Low attendance to Rival Wing is entirely NA/EU issue. It seems the community is unable to adopt to large scale PvP with strategic elements.
2. Exp incentive is not enough to keep both modes active on NA/EU. (Both mode is already offering exp incentive where you can lvl a job while playing it)
3. You can not to have both Feast on Daily Challenge and Rank Matching system active at same time. It only creates chaos and attract a crowd that no body wants. This Daily Challenge will not help Feast but rather further poison it.
4. Never ever trying to use rewards to attract PvE players; it never ends well.
5. Devs are not dumb, there is reason Feast is not on the Daily Challenge and pretty much there is no reason for Rival Wing to be on it either

I don't understand your opposition to adding a daily challenge queue for Rival Wings and The Feast (Training). It seems pretty simple to me. Facts: Right now PVP scene is dead outside of Frontlines, which is gratingly braindead. Why is Frontlines populated? Because it has a daily challenge and people are incentivized to queue for it for the EXP. If you are against having a incentive for people to queue for these PVP modes because you think "PVE" casuals will join it, you are toxic. Nobody wants Ranked The Feast in a daily challenge queue.

1a. "Is entirely a NA/EU issue"
... okay so a huge portion of the player base?

1b. "The community is unable to [adapt] to large scale PVP with strategic elements."
What even is your point here? No. People aren't queuing for it because they have zero incentive to.

2a. "EXP incentive is not enough"
YES it is. That's the ONLY reason Frontlines queues exist right now in a healthy way.

2b. "(Both mode is already offering exp incentive where you can lvl a job while playing it)"
.....??!?!?!?! WHAT? No, no modes other than Frontlines offer a Daily Challenge XP bonus for queuing. This is false.

3. "You can not to have both Feast on Daily Challenge and Rank Matching"
YES YOU CAN. The Feast (Ranked) and the Feast (Training) ALREADY coexist. All I'm saying is add a Daily Challenge for The Feast (Training) queue. Nobody is saying create an entirely new queue, people who would queue for the Daily challenge would be funneled into the queue for The Feast (Training). It would also incentivize people to play The Feast in general and introduce new people the PVP format. Get out of here with that toxic "More people queuing for the Feast would poison it" BS.

4. "Never ever trying to use rewards to attract PvE players"
??????? What even is your point here? Frontlines has an EXP incentive for people to join. What would the downside be? More players playing PVP?

5. "there is reason Feast is not on the Daily Challenge and pretty much there is no reason for Rival Wing to be on it either"
You're intentionally blind and ignoring my objective. Rival Wings and The Feast DO NOT EXIST on my data center. If a Daily Challenge were added for these two modes, people would play the modes, as is evident from Frontlines. People play Frontlines because it has a Daily Challenge.

Honestly reading, and rereading your posts is making me angry, as you're either intentionally obtuse, or you fundamentally don't understand what this thread is about.

[BloodRubyXII]

I mean I rarely agree with Divinemights, but he's partially right and has PvPed in this game for an extremely long time, I understood his points perfectly, even though some of them I find questionable. He's not being toxic, it's because like every other Feast player he's seen exactly what happens to the mode when people play any activity in this game for incentives rather than because they actually enjoy what they're doing, it ends badly. His point is spot on, but you've not played long enough clearly to see exactly why he's so right on almost every point. The Feast doesn't exist on Aether because all your best players basically chose to make alts on Crystal this season, no idea why. Rival Wings pops every Saturday evening on every DC. It's also active at the beginning, and end of mog tome events. But like every other queue in this game, it has started to slow, which is normal if you understand our community and the FF patch cycle.

Fundementally you do not understand our community, and it's your lack of understanding that's tilting you, not the people proving you wrong.

[Divinemights]

Oh boy, let put in this way. I highly recommend you to be crystal clear on your ideas when you are making a proposal of changes that may impacting other people's in-game experiences. Please do not expect everyone is going to be your audience when your proposal changes will impact other's in-game experience/

This is in your own word:

I would like to see more support for PVP in this game in general, but more immediately I would like to see two new Duty Roulette/Daily Challenge queues created for Rival Wings and The Feast.

I am sure I am not the only one would think you are trying to put the Feast on Daily Challenge instead of the Training mode. I can ensure you if you specify that it is the training mode, you are not only will not see resistance, but you will gain support from the Feasters. This is on you, not on us.

Also, I am also a Leviathan, pretty sure I still can play Rival Wing at the weekend with other who are also there to play the mode. I also pretty sure that I am able to reach Platinum in the Feast at least before I gave up because of queue time. Are you sure we are in the same data center? The problem with Feast is not exp incentives but rather it need a rank decay system so you can flush people out to keep the queue alive (Yes, this is debatable, but it is one of the option)

As far as put Rival Wing on Daily Challenge, i really doubt that it would help because this mode was never popular to begin with in EU and NA. In term of PvP community, yes, we are much smaller instead of of "huge chuck" of player base you think it is, that only apply to PvE community. Most of PvPers who would keep playing PvP usually spend time at Frontline over Rival Wing, whether there is a daily challenge or not, that is the reality. Thing didn't changed until a PvP discord organized weekend event to revive the mode, but nevertheless it is not a mode that favoring by the PvP community

I also need to correct you on your misconception that people need incentive to play PvP. Maybe you do, but not everyone else. When I am lvl 70 capped on every job and has nothing to spend on wolf mark in Stormblood, yes I will still PvP and I can ensure you, i will find the people likes me on the Primal to make Frontoline pop every 10 mins during the Prime time. I stand solid on the idea that you do not need incentive to bait PvE players into PvP, it never ends well

[Esmoire]

Yeah. Like I said earlier in the thread, I see Divinemights and plenty of other regulars playing FL way, way past the point of saturation that any extrinsic reward could provide... It's pretty obvious there is a big enough audience that intrinsically enjoys the experience as it plays now.

I think the Daily Challenge is a nice way to encourage people to try PvP. That said, the audience of people who like the experience to the point where they play it back-to-back and with no need for Wolf Marks/XP is pretty substantial. These players are more interested in getting better at the game and just enjoying the PvP experience, improving the quality of the matches the more of these players we have, rather than people who just want their unconditional participation bonus you can get with minimal investment.

Considering the mode needs 72 people in it to get started, in a game like FFXIV where people tend to favour content more gentle where everybody wins, the activity is pretty good for a side attraction. It could be better in terms of participation and the developer has work to do, but I'd say FL is looking good and rightfully the overall preferred form of PvP, especially when the rotation comes back. I don't think RW is quite there yet with or without a Daily Challenge.

[BloodRubyXII]

snip (read all though)

Yeah I mean I agree the daily challenge is an extremely good idea, but the execution of it is important; this is a game where players absolutely love participation trophies, and people fail to realise this does more damage to the mode in a long run than the state they found it in in the first place. Like RWs for example, whether you won or lost you got 5 tomes, I literally drowned in them I happen to quite like RW and I'm not overly fussed if I lose, but I play like I want to win because at the end of the day its a team v team mode and I like winning things. Having the mode outlast me every single day especially with everyone being in lockdown from covid-19 was a weird experience, normally the queues go to bed before you do, with RW in the first few months of the event I was soundly beaten in that regard. But because you got max rewards from losing, people didn't care, made matches a nightmare for people who really wanted to try for the mount whilst they could get pops and everyone subsequently dipped because the vast majority of people got every single reward the vendor had to offer. Even last event within a week I was dumping tomes on MGP because I owned everything, it was kinda sad.

I think for the training mode, having a daily challenge for it in my opinion is actually a good idea - the two modes absolutely can be functioning side by side in tandem; and it would stop the current situation where people are starting in ranked, playing with people that are in their gold promos and not having a clue what to do because they couldn't get any games in the training mode - which makes it impossible to blame them for not having the slightest clue how to play especially since you can't communicate with them to explain the mode; but they absolutely have to make it so you need to win unlike frontlines or it's going to end badly. And given that the frontlines roulette doesn't work this way, and traditionally similar events/roulettes don't - this is an unlikely outcome. I mean think about it, if in trial roulette to receive the daily reward all you needed to do was survive the boss for 2 minutes, and you end up drawing a boss like Titania. Simply survive for two minutes, then everyone jumps off the edge. It would be ludicrous to argue that people would absolutely not do this.

[Rebel40000]

I was talking to some people in my FC last night about how I would love to do more Rival Wings but it's almost impossible to play. I enjoy it way more than Frontline, so I would onboard for adding it as a roulette. It's always great when the moogle tome event starts because people actually want to play it for a little bit.

[Kezzic]

Also, I am also a Leviathan, pretty sure I still can play Rival Wing [on] the weekend with other[s] who are also there to play the mode.

Yeah... only on the weekends, when the PVP Discords have decided to play the mode. It shouldn't be like that, Square Enix should find their own solution to pull players into the modes. There are other MMOs out there with plenty of PVP modes that you can queue for at any given time, on any given day of the week, and the queues will pop in a reasonable amount of time. The addition of Daily Challenges to incentivize, or simply even remind/make casual players aware of the modes will improve the queue.

I also need to correct you on your misconception that people need incentive to play PvP. Maybe you do, but not everyone else[...] I stand solid on the idea that you do not need incentive to bait PvE players into PvP, it never ends well

Nobody is saying people don't play PVP just for the fun of playing it. But do you think people would join Leveling Duties if there wasn't a Roulette for it? No. Do you think the ONLY reason that Frontlines queues pop so fast is because people like the mode more than The Feast and Rival Wings? No, otherwise people would be using the PVP category to queue for maps other than Onsal Hakair. Nobody is using the PVP category to queue, they're clicking the "Daily Challenge: Frontline" checkbox because its on the front of their roulettes page, and it includes an XP reward for their alt jobs.

Yall arguing that you have all your PvE jobs maxed-out and you queue for PVP anyway is a non-sequitur, and honestly a weird flex. You are the minority. I am arguing to incentivize all the casuals that queue for Frontlines to also have an outlet to queue for the other PVP modes.

Rival Wings pops every Saturday evening on every DC. [...] But like every other queue in this game, it has started to slow, which is normal if you understand our community and the FF patch cycle. [Fundamentally] you do not understand our community, and it's your lack of understanding that's tilting you, not the people proving you wrong.

First off, I understand the community, I understand patch cycles, and no, people aren't proving me wrong. Ad hominem attacks on me are a waste of time, and really only serves to degrade the quality of our discussion. PVP Discords being the only reason queues pop for certain PVP modes is ridiculous. Nitpicking the fact that I did not specify that I meant The Feast (Training) is silly, because in the end you all agree that The Feast (Training) would be a good idea for a Daily Challenge, for a multitude of reasons.

My original point still stands, The Feast (Training) and Rival Wings should be added as Daily Challenges to pull more players into the modes outside of peak hours.

[BloodRubyXII]

Yeah... only on the weekends, when the PVP Discords have decided to play the mode. It shouldn't be like that, Square Enix should find their own solution to pull players into the modes. There are other MMOs out there with plenty of PVP modes that you can queue for at any given time, on any given day of the week, and the queues will pop in a reasonable amount of time. The addition of Daily Challenges to incentivize, or simply even remind/make casual players aware of the modes will improve the queue.



Nobody is saying people don't play PVP just for the fun of playing it. But do you think people would join Leveling Duties if there wasn't a Roulette for it? No. Do you think the ONLY reason that Frontlines queues pop so fast is because people like the mode more than The Feast and Rival Wings? No, otherwise people would be using the PVP category to queue for maps other than Onsal Hakair. Nobody is using the PVP category to queue, they're clicking the "Daily Challenge: Frontline" checkbox because its on the front of their roulettes page, and it includes an XP reward for their alt jobs.

Yall arguing that you have all your PvE jobs maxed-out and you queue for PVP anyway is a non-sequitur, and honestly a weird flex. You are the minority. I am arguing to incentivize all the casuals that queue for Frontlines to also have an outlet to queue for the other PVP modes.



First off, I understand the community, I understand patch cycles, and no, people aren't proving me wrong. Ad hominem attacks on me are a waste of time, and really only serves to degrade the quality of our discussion. PVP Discords being the only reason queues pop for certain PVP modes is ridiculous. Nitpicking the fact that I did not specify that The Feast (Training) is silly, because in the end you all agree that The Feast (Training) would be a good idea for a Daily Challenge, for a multitude of reasons.

My original point still stands, The Feast (Training) and Rival Wings should be added as Daily Challenges to pull more players into the modes outside of peak hours.

You still don't get it. PvP isn't popular in this game. The options to play PvP are there, the issue isn't that it's not accessible - SE actually made it more accessible; the community is the issue in part because they don't want to play it and spend more time complaining that it's a meme and that people wintrade in ranked modes than actually trying to improve it - why? because like the vast majority of our population no-one cares. PvP is popular in the main game region which is Japan. It's the west that doesn't don't bite. It is literally something you have to accept playing this game because it's been like this for years and got worse when FLs became 72man only, accept it. MMORPG PvP is awful, and this game attracts fans of the franchise, not people who generally play a lot of MMORPGs nor PvP that much - therefore it is rare someone actually starts this game with any interest in it. And it's pretty bad, this is literally one of the worst sets of PvP patches (bring back 5.0 pls) we've ever had and now is the time you wanna advocate for PvP activity. You then throw around memes like WeIRd FlEx and take accurate assessments of your arguments like some kind of pseudo attack and then have the audacity to cry about discussion quality in a scene you know nothing about that people who have been a part of it for years are trying to educate you on.

Please lmfao.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

You still don't get it. PvP isn't popular in this game. The options to play PvP are there, the issue isn't that it's not accessible - SE actually made it more accessible; the community is the issue in part because they don't want to play it and spend more time complaining that it's a meme and that people wintrade in ranked modes than actually trying to improve it - why? because like the vast majority of our population no-one cares. PvP is popular in the main game region which is Japan. It's the west that doesn't don't bite. It is literally something you have to accept playing this game because it's been like this for years and got worse when FLs became 72man only, accept it. MMORPG PvP is awful, and this game attracts fans of the franchise, not people who generally play a lot of MMORPGs nor PvP that much - therefore it is rare someone actually starts this game with any interest in it. And it's pretty bad, this is literally one of the worst sets of PvP patches (bring back 5.0 pls) we've ever had and now is the time you wanna advocate for PvP activity. You then throw around memes like WeIRd FlEx and take accurate assessments of your arguments like some kind of pseudo attack and then have the audacity to cry about discussion quality in a scene you know nothing about that people who have been a part of it for years are trying to educate you on.

Please lmfao.

So, adding one or two extra Daily Challenges to further point players into the direction of "hey, this PvP mode exists, try it out" is bad how exactly? Like I get that we aren't exactly in a golden era of PvP, but honestly without advertising people to run it somehow (Roulettes / Daily Challenge) you can't exactly expect modes to get any more attraction other than insider info and dragging someone in or looking up PvPaissa and the likes.

From PvE we kinda have learned that Alliance Roulette and Normal Raid Roulette became necessary so people could run the outdated content because it incentivized other people to join that roulette and go along with them. The same logic can be applied to Rival Wings and The Feast (Training).

Maybe just my own viewpoint - but it literally hurts noone if you increased the general playercount via incentives through a Daily Challenge to make popping queues much less of a hassle, which in turn could draw attention from the crowd that wants to try / get better at PvP because their preferred modes are popping up more.

Really, what is the loss?

[DrWho2010]

you can't just magically *make* people do PVP. even if you add a daily challenge thing - you'd have to incentivize it first which would only attract people from the PVE crowd for a very short time. eventually the mode will die off and you'll be back to square one. Square enix can't find a solution to pull people into a mode because they're not willing to pull resources into suddenly more PVP - they're far too busy making more PVE stuff.