The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[xxvaynxx]

cut

If its subjective then there is no point to keep going and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Thanks for admitting it.

And a shirtless overly buff dude with monster teeth that has giant stabber that come out her arms that gets his skull cracked open and still keep going totally isn't weird at all, "realism." /s
The fact that you see nothing wrong with they said regarding why they changed the females but left the males alone..I can't tell if you're just being willfully obtuse or as I said before, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

[Krotoan]

Look up Anita Sarkeesian. She was a YouTuber with a channel called Tropes vs Women where she basically got paid a lot of money to make up BS about how every time a woman is featured in a video game it's to demean and shame them. She even managed to consult on games like Mirror's Edge 2 (the game sucked because they dumbed it down and it was broken. Which is sad because I liked the first one) and Mass Effect Andromeda (which had a whole bevvy of issues). I even heard she had a small hand in the Last of Us 2 (though unsubstantiated). She accrued a lot of money and then just disappeared like a fart in a whirlwind.

If you think she is the sole reason for things being less hyper sexualized in gaming.. I dunno.. little tinfoil hatty. She was not a reasonable voice, I'll give you that, but she wasn't particularly well received by all developers.

If its subjective then there is no point to keep going and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Thanks for admitting it.

Yes.. it's entirely subjective, so WHY bring it up?

Stopped making attractive female characters and really only make the males attractive while all the females tend to be pretty freaking fuggly with B cups to make sure its not too sexy because the "NOOO HER BACK WILL HURT" meme.

Considering attractiveness is subjective how are they "fugly"? Why does it matter that all the characters are what you consider "attractive"?

I wasn't the one who made the original assertion!

And a shirtless overly buff dude with monster teeth that has giant stabber that come out her arms that gets his skull cracked open and still keep going totally isn't weird at all, "realism." /s
The fact that you see nothing wrong with they said regarding why they changed the females but left the males alone..I can't tell if you're just being willfully obtuse or as I said before, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

And we have people consistently living through life threatening injuries during the game as well.. however this doesn't mean we cant make the people look a little more human and less comic book fantasy. They decidedly did NOT leave the guys alone. They all have the same "realistic" face aesthetic the women do. Considering most of them started out with reasonably "normal" fighting clothes I don't see why they'd get that much of a change anyway.

[Joven]

If you think she is the sole reason for things being less hyper sexualized in gaming.. I dunno.. little tinfoil hatty. She was not a reasonable voice, I'll give you that, but she wasn't particularly well received by all developers.

While she isn't the sole reason, she was the most persistent and vocal.

I wouldn't say gaming has ever been hyper sexualized even before now and I've been gaming since the mid '90s. There have been instances of it yes, but those generally were/are games that actually try to be in your face about it, like Mortal Kombat used to. The majority of games just want to be games with attractive female characters. It's just that people only focus on those few examples and try to claim it's the norm. It's the same vein as the violence causing mass shootings nonsense.

If you're interested I would suggest looking into Gamergate. That's really where the whole thing started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STl7-_f4_eA

[Driavna]

You refuse to further discuss your point as you said we're getting off track.. so if elaborating your point isn't relevant, why bother?




When Did I ever say that masculine females ARE less attractive, I asked why you thought it was a detriment. I can be big enough to say maybe that was taking your post in the wrong direction, however I'd also appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I am not ignoring what you said, I'm saying YOU originally cited a game as containing something which you now cannot find or cannot be bothered to find examples of.

Again.. what is the problem with having female characters with non-conventional attractive appearances. I am still waiting for your REASON for even griping about it.

My point was about western devs representing females as men, then I corrected myself and use the word masculine. I did mention this also happening with TLoU2. When asked for an example I said I did not have any at hand and linked something else, still related to my main point: western devs representing females with masculine traits. Is up to you to decide if I acted with bad faith or not.

Anyway, I never mentioned anything related to attractiveness, you were the one pushing that interpretation on me. From there you seem to belive: less attractive = more realistic. I disagree, humans are extremely diverse but on average males have a tendency to show masculine traits, the same way females have a tendency to show feminine traits. Something realistic will maintain that average while still showing feminine men (almost absent from western games BTW), and/or masculine female (they are now the norm) or whatever they want.

Do you want to know what my problem is? All of this is blatant pandering from corporations that don't care. Examples:

- Bethesda with its pride icon absent from countries that need help to fight for their rights.
- Blizzard removing any trace of gay characters in China.
- Disney making their movies with pointless gay "winks" that are going to be edited out for certain countries.
- Western media more interested in antagonizing established fans for a quick "in your face nazi", than in creating compelling new characters/plots.

Then we have Ubisoft "forcing" Chinese "standard" (https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/3/18...ox-one-ubisoft), not out malice but because it's cheaper to only maintain one version of the game. Lucky us gamers united and pushed back. But what do you think will happen if China will become the main market? Will you enjoy the Chinese standard forced on you? I don't. It's the same with this "western standard" that is being pushed right now.

[Solarra]

Why are most female bosses sexy? Because women by nature are sexy.

Can't say scantily clad females have ever done much for me tbh.

Men by nature are rough, rugged, and more animalistic/aggressive.

Makes me think of my WoW male characters and their ridiculously muscular elbows! And guess what? You might find that over-muscled look appealing, but that doesn't do much for me, either.

One thing I've enjoyed about the FF franchise is that they've not stuck exclusively to those the lazy stereotypes when creating their villains and bosses. I was disappointed that Lakshmi had to be prettied up to please Yoshi since he found her original concept too homely looking, because the result was pretty standard fare and rather dull.

I agree with the OP there is a lack of balance between male and female bosses in FFXIV. More pretty (and not-so-pretty) guys wouldn't go amiss, in my opinion.

[Alleo]

So...The last boss of the most recent dungeon? I dunno, seems to fit the female side of what you were asking.Maybe just me.

Which was part of my sentence. Yes there are some but the good looking and humanoid looking females are much more while the scale tips to the complete other side with males too. And they still tend to give these more beastial females still boobs..which honestly often just looks strange. x)

[VirusOnline]

Why is something appealing to guys 'sexism', but appealing to girls is fine?

You are missing the point and instead serving up quite a loaded question.

But it's a fair question and I like to think most double standards are the results of social inequality issues. I want to be as unbiased as I possibly can, and perhaps it's easier for me to do so as I can platonically appreciate both male and female gender as a male myself.

To start, before sexism can be brought into the picture we must first acknowledge gender representation, sexual objectification, and sexualization. Catering purely towards any one side is sexist when you know your audience is nearly 50 50 male female and that the game's content is not purely for said purpose.

Female characters are the ones mostly objectified while male characters are not. Females are also often the only gender objectified and or sexualized. This is the crux of the sexist argument. The argument being that this objectification takes a sole gender and reduces them to their sexualized "goods". Let's take a look at ffxiv. We can make men look attractive, sexualized, hypersexualized, but not objectified. Let's rewind back to the forum post that suggested a bulge slider. Males only have a muscular slider. Females have breast slider, now butt mod, and we also have a very VERY revealing viera race thong. Are these necessary features or are they purposed to be sexualized which can then lead to objectification across the board ? Do you see where I'm going ?

Let's flip it. Many people do not want to see a male bulge. And what could be sexualized or objectified has been neutered via censored nipples and the smoothest pelvis. Let's remember that objectification targets those "goods". SE seems to have taken an opinion.

If you're astute enough, you can observe the correlation of SE's character development vs objectification/sexualization when she is apart of a serious plotline.

It's important to be able to see how gender representation and objectification exists in games as it can relate to sexism. Females are almost always the sole objectified, sexualized, and stereotyped party and therefore reaches into sexist territory when there is no equalizer. And yes, this goes vice versa, but there is a slight difference I feel. It is not easy to do such to a male. It's easy to sexualize a male, but not to objectify him. And if we are able to objectify him, does it even have the same impact of objectifying a female ?

No one is saying that it would not be sexist to flip the coin on men. Rather, it's sexist to only sexualize and objectify a sole gender for the purpose of a select gender's gaze. The hand revealed in doing this says that this gender is meant to be sexualized and objectified for their gender while the other gender is either not worthy of it or too higbrow for it.

There is a lot of nuance in your question and I like that it made me think for quite a few hours here.

[Driavna]

You are missing the point and instead serving up quite a loaded question.

But it's a fair question and I like to think most double standards are the results of social inequality issues. I want to be as unbiased as I possibly can, and perhaps it's easier for me to do so as I can platonically appreciate both male and female gender as a male myself.

To start, before sexism can be brought into the picture we must first acknowledge gender representation, sexual objectification, and sexualization. Catering purely towards any one side is sexist when you know your audience is nearly 50 50 male female and that the game's content is not purely for said purpose.

Female characters are the ones mostly objectified while male characters are not. Females are also often the only gender objectified and or sexualized. This is the crux of the sexist argument. The argument being that this objectification takes a sole gender and reduces them to their sexualized "goods". Let's take a look at ffxiv. We can make men look attractive, sexualized, hypersexualized, but not objectified. Let's rewind back to the forum post that suggested a bulge slider. Males only have a muscular slider. Females have breast slider, now butt mod, and we also have a very VERY revealing viera race thong. Are these necessary features or are they purposed to be sexualized which can then lead to objectification across the board ? Do you see where I'm going ?

Let's flip it. Many people do not want to see a male bulge. And what could be sexualized or objectified has been neutered via censored nipples and the smoothest pelvis. Let's remember that objectification targets those "goods". SE seems to have taken an opinion.

If you're astute enough, you can observe the correlation of SE's character development vs objectification/sexualization when she is apart of a serious plotline.

It's important to be able to see how gender representation and objectification exists in games as it can relate to sexism. Females are almost always the sole objectified, sexualized, and stereotyped party and therefore reaches into sexist territory when there is no equalizer. And yes, this goes vice versa, but there is a slight difference I feel. It is not easy to do such to a male. It's easy to sexualize a male, but not to objectify him. And if we are able to objectify him, does it even have the same impact of objectifying a female ?

No one is saying that it would not be sexist to flip the coin on men. Rather, it's sexist to only sexualize and objectify a sole gender for the purpose of a select gender's gaze. The hand revealed in doing this says that this gender is meant to be sexualized and objectified for their gender while the other gender is either not worthy of it or too higbrow for it.

There is a lot of nuance in your question and I like that it made me think for quite a few hours here.

I disagree. From my point of view is an attempted justification to allow one thing and not the other. Both genders are subjected to objectification and, very often unfair, expectations. A good example of this is how people talk about "male power fantasy" but ignore "female power fantasy".

Anyway, is a rabbit hole I do not wish to travel.

[Eldevern]

...

So basically, you say that to represent a woman sexy is to objectify her but to make a man sexy is not to objectify him. To represent a woman as "feminine" is to objectify her or to belittle her but to represent a man muscular or manly (with a uniform for example since it is often appealing to women) is to gratify them.

Double standard and contradictory.

This totally ignore those women who would love to feel free to be sexy or girly but cannot because even in the eyes of some feminist, to be feminine or sexy is to belittle women as gender or to be a lose woman. In other word, women feminists can be even more mysogynist than those men who consider sexy women as lose (when not worst).

It is sad to see that feminist can walk the path of some misogynist men and enforce this patriarchal vision.

Funny thing, as child, I remember some joke about men who do bodybuilding, the line was more or less : the bigger are muscles, smaler is the brain. And men cannot be objectified?

[VirusOnline]

I disagree. From my point of view is an attempted justification to allow one thing and not the other. Both genders are subjected to objectification and, very often unfair, expectations. A good example of this is how people talk about "male power fantasy" but ignore "female power fantasy".

Anyway, is a rabbit hole I do not wish to travel.

Odd, since I quite agree with you and thought my post conveyed such.