"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Tlachtga]

People still listen to what he says? Yeah he's good at the game, but he's the literal textbook example of a Toxic Elitist. Not surprising.

Not really. He's just very candid, and expects a fair amount of effort from his teammates.

It's more the playerbase is so used to being coddled and hearing honeyed words that pure honesty is like a slap in the face sometimes.

His Twitch chat is 15x worse than anything he has done, and he can't control that.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Not really. He's just very candid, and expects a fair amount of effort from his teammates.

It's more the playerbase is so used to being coddled and hearing honeyed words that pure honesty is like a slap in the face sometimes.

His Twitch chat is 15x worse than anything he has done, and he can't control that.

Let's be honest here, this community is so used to coddling and white knighting being the norm that anyone being even remotely blunt is considered 'toxic' to the majority of the the Great Community.

[ForteNightshade]

Not really. He's just very candid, and expects a fair amount of effort from his teammates.

It's more the playerbase is so used to being coddled and hearing honeyed words that pure honesty is like a slap in the face sometimes.

His Twitch chat is 15x worse than anything he has done, and he can't control that.

I'll quote something Xeno said once that rings true for a lot of people. "I just say what everyone's thinking."

Whenever someone brings up how "toxic" he can he. I'm reminded of the time he spent an hour, on stream, teaching a newbie tank A10S. The key difference was that tank listened, and when he screwed up, owned his mistakes and tried again. What Xeno, and many people in general, lose patience over are people who won't listen. Granted, he's outright admitted he's just not good in learning parties. Hence why he almost never joins them nowadays.

[Arngrim_Greyashe]

People must be bored. The troll thread posters are coming back.

[Veis_Alveare]

No it's not. The moment you sign for a farm party it means you have quite a good understanding of the fight.
Trying to sneak into a farm party while being not good at the fight and probably waste 7 people times shouldn't be met with kindness.

Being upset at player joining farm party while not knowing what to do is not toxic nor elitist.
Wasting people time is however toxic.

If you expect every player who's trying to farm outdated mounts to know about fflogs and judge their own clears as bad when they've got multiple of them you're being incredibly unrealistic.

Kicking someone from old EX content that basically didn't even have a dps check when it was current then talking a bunch of smack about them when you haven't even given them a chance to play is definitely toxic.

If that drg had reliably done mechanics we could have farmed, as I recall we got someone else a few minutes after the kick but the party disbanded after some misplaced comets. Caring about the color of someone else's parse when you're just trying to get a whistle to drop is pointless, takes looking enough for parties to fill most of them time you're better served just getting in there and getting done clears even if they take an extra 30 seconds.

[Nedkel]

What we need is Square Enix developers to stop sucking dry FFXIV from monies, and instead of investing them into another failed triple-A FFXV like games, get more devs working on the FFXIV and give us more diversity across the gameplay difficulty.

Right now casual content is super minimal, 1 dungeon per patch, 1 alliance raid every 2-3 patches, some useless crafting stuff and nothing else.
Why not divide raids into 3 separate levels of difficulty, one normal, second hard without enrage and third with enrage?
Why not give us more dungeons, bring old back to live, make them more difficult and give us hard modes for them?

The end game in FFXIV is lackluster and in need of change, i know smaller games with smaller companies running them that do more job managing it than SE ever did.
Thats why elitists are boiling in the same water with casuals, because sooner or later everyone will have only savage raids to do.

[RyuSaarva]

What we need is Square Enix developers to stop sucking dry FFXIV from monies, and instead of investing them into another failed triple-A FFXV like games, get more devs working on the FFXIV and give us more diversity across the gameplay difficulty.

Right now casual content is super minimal, 1 dungeon per patch, 1 alliance raid every 2-3 patches, some useless crafting stuff and nothing else.
Why not divide raids into 3 separate levels of difficulty, one normal, second hard without enrage and third with enrage?
Why not give us more dungeons, bring old back to live, make them more difficult and give us hard modes for them?

The end game in FFXIV is lackluster and in need of change, i know smaller games with smaller companies running them that do more job managing it than SE ever did.
Thats why elitists are boiling in the same water with casuals, because sooner or later everyone will have only savage raids to do.

Next patch should have the final bad guy and after it no more combat at all and we should only get crafting and gathering quests and content.

[Daniolaut]

Just going to correct a bunch of things here, point for point.

This is stunning. I have never read a response that could be more wrong.

-First of all, once you're a month or more into a tier where people have access to much more gear there is zero excuse to not do uptime strats. It kills the boss faster and it's more efficient. Moreover, if I were to go and do E2S right now and my group didn't skip Quietus and Cycles I would instantly leave that group because such poor performance with how much we outgear that content now is just unacceptable.

There are numerous reasons people wouldnt use uptime strategies.

1. They arent comfortable with it.
2. Most are more risky.
3. Heavens forbid someone uses a more successful strategy, that involves a higher chance of success.

Success should be the number 1 goal. Not damage.

If a party wipes 15 times trying to do "uptime" but can one shot using a more successful strategy, the "high damage faster uptime" is ... a waste of time.

I dont even know how you people can come up with this type of nonsense.

-If TBN does not break then you have objectively used it incorrectly. A TBN that doesn't break is nothing more than a waste of 3,000 mana and it really is as simple as that. The fact of the matter is that damage is king in XIV, and a non-broken TBN is a direct loss of 500 potency, thus translating to using the skill wrong if it doesn't break.

The Blackest Night is a mitigation action. Thats literally all it does. If it mitigates any damage, it is not used incorrectly.

Its not a waste of MP if you use it and it mitigates damage. Its literally as simple as that.

You are so horribly wrong its unfathomable.

The skill literally says

Creates a barrier around target that absorbs damage totaling 25% of target's maximum HP.
Duration: 7s
Grants Dark Arts when barrier is completely absorbed.
Dark Arts Effect: Consume Dark Arts instead of MP to execute Edge of Shadow or Flood of Shadow.

That is literally like saying you used Abyssal Drain, but didnt gain any HP is a waste of Abyssal Drain.

That is literally the exact same mind set based on the action descriptions.

Literally exactly the same. Literally based on what you said, or implied, that failing to gain Dark Arts to "save" the MP, and not using the action to its fullest potential is a waste of the action and incorrect usage.

Like seriously thats just wrong.

Description of Abyssal Drain for reference:

Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 200 to target and all enemies nearby it.
Additional Effect: Restores own HP
Cure Potency: 200

-Unless the melee/tank player intentionally failing a mechanic to gain uptime results in someone dying or the raid wiping then there is absolutely no reason for said melee/tank player to NOT ignore that mechanic. There are only two times that a mechanical failure actually matters, and those are if it gives a damage down or if the vuln that it would give you will directly translate to your death. Outside of those two specific situations you should absolutely eat the mechanic to gain uptime.
-Yes hello, pugged the entire Eden's Gate savage tier as well as all of my EX clears. I can safely say that I have had nothing but positive results when 'ignoring' mechanics for uptime, when doing uptime strats, and have had nothing but negative results when failing to break TBN.

If you're happy with based on rankings clear rates, only 100,000 people clearing Shiva, and you're happy with abysmal clear rates, and people leaving parties after 1-2 wipes, and less than .05% of the community clearing fights, then yes, yes what you preach is good solid and sound.

I personally find the success rates of groups absolutely horrid, and I never find it to be the fault of a "casual" but someone who refuses work with the team. Based on everything you said, you refuse to do anything but your way. Which is exactly what is always the problem in pugs. People refusing to adjust and work as a team.

Edit:
You know what, I just read your signature, and you are absolutely disrespectful to the fullest extent. I will no longer be interacting with you. Good day.

[Daniolaut]

Snip.

See, I can appreciate when someone speaks with sense and responds with respect.

I often will speak sternly, or stress a fact, but I never speak out of experience, or having heard or witnessed something happening.

Does that make everything I always say correct? No but I try my best to be civil, while sharing my thoughts.

Which is not always easy to do, when I'm met with such vile disrespect constantly.

The problem with not only this thread, and ones like it, is now people are acting like "casual" players are the cause of .. something.

I dont even know what the elitist people are trying to say. Except, what I said at the start. That anyone not pulling orange/pink, clearing all of savage week 1, or dont have ultimate clears are now horrible players and then also horrible people.

I watched the video from that other thread, and everyone not only feeds that mindset, and anything that says otherwise, is literally labeled as trolling, or toxic, but also feed that "more damage" is the only way. When... based on clear rates, clearly is not the most successful way.

I cant tell you how many times I have been called a troll, and I am the furthest from it.

How is asking why clear rates are so low, and wanting to improve the success of the community as a whole a troll. While literally harassing players, calling people trolls, calling yourself a "Man" or "god" or whatever other self proclaimed hierarchy, and saying your way is the only way, is not the exact thing youre claiming others of?

I've never seen an "elitist" quit the game or get harassed out of a party by a "casual" but I have seen very often the opposite.

Just a few pages ago I was called a troll for referencing people to look up the situation where a Nico Nico player was harassed by someone parsing.

To me that just shows me parts of this community not only will celebrate disrespect, but even some, will go as far as to attack people who seek teamwork.


So if you could respond on this matter:

How can you be satisfied with the current clear rates of the community. (Less than 200,000 people clearing savage roughly per tier.)
How do you find "casual" people or people who are still learning, somehow intolerable, and the cause of not only failure but toxicity. Especially considering the statements I made above about well known twitch streamers and youtubers celebrating, disrespect?
How do you feel doing uptime strategies is the only way people should do any fight? Especially in situations the success of any given group, specifically less experienced ones, would result in a higher chance for failure, and doing a safer, lower damage strategy would result in more clears?


Edit:
In closing,
You or someone else said "People do not deserve a clear simply because they want to." Thats never was I was trying to imply.

My whole point, which was made in the original post is exactly this. Even you said your group was in the grey parsing groups.
The damage needed to clear savage is not nearly as close as it needs to be to rank even blue.

So if someone who wants to clear, puts in the time. Spends months and months gearing up, learning the fight, and manages to pull only a grey parse, and everyone in their group is on that same level. Just barely manages after all the effort and time they put into it, are no worse of a player or especially not a bad person, as the people who wipe for 18+ hours a day for world first.

You have no idea why someone might struggle with a fight, and having 0 tolerance for someone pulling low numbers even if the groups overall damage is more than sufficient to clear, even if that same person is pulling their jobs minimum, in my opinion leaving at that point, is misuse of parsing, and the exact mentality of why parsing shouldnt be allowed. Now if the group is going to hit enrage and not clear, by all means, leave. But in my opinion leaving just because someone has low damage, is absolutely disrespectful and senseless. You've only now wasted their time, everyone else in the party, as well as your own time. For what reason? Beause you're intolerable and demeaning? But that person is the toxic person? I will never agree to that. Never. Call me a troll, or whatever will make you feel better, its not going to phase me.

[Daniolaut]

the devs have never given us anything else to try for.

I have some ideas for you.

How about better consistency.
Higher clear rates for the community.
Smoother, easier runs.


I remember in 2.0, people doing auto attacks to build limit break 3, so they could break Titans heart, because we brought 3 healers into the party, to ensure we would win more often.

Sure it was a little less exciting at the start, but the clear rates were much higher on a party by party basis, than groups not use that strategy.

But... I guess thats just trolling and being toxic. So. Me and others are clearly just horrible horrible people.