"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[LittleImp]

I was pretty sure this was a troll post, and then read where you said people are calling TBN bad. That's when I knew for sure it was a troll post, because all I see people saying is that it's the most powerful skill in the game.

It stems from XenosysVex ranting about and criticizing the 'punish' on failing to pop TBN. Somewhere along the line it got twisted and now people are running around thinking TBN is bad lol.

[TheRealQuah]

It stems from XenosysVex ranting about and criticizing the 'punish' on failing to pop TBN. Somewhere along the line it got twisted and now people are running around thinking TBN is bad lol.

People still listen to what he says? Yeah he's good at the game, but he's the literal textbook example of a Toxic Elitist. Not surprising.

[LittleImp]

People still listen to what he says? Yeah he's good at the game, but he's the literal textbook example of a Toxic Elitist. Not surprising.

For real, Xeno joined one of my learning parties once and proceeded to abuse the hell out of my friend on stream and he straight up quit the game over it :| ugh

[RagingStallion]

If anyone can clear any fight then how come no one cleared the Orbonne Monastery in week 1? (Hint: the thunder God) The clear answer is that no, not everyone can clear difficult encounters like Ozma, thunder God, and Mist Dragon. That's why jump potions exist - for people to skip hard fights so they can continue enjoying the story.

[LaylaTsarra]

Here we go again...

LOL they never get enough of it. Same tune over and over again.

[Awha]

I was pretty sure this was a troll post, and then read where you said people are calling TBN bad. That's when I knew for sure it was a troll post, because all I see people saying is that it's the most powerful skill in the game.

To be fair, this is FFXIV community. So it would not shock me if people think TBN is bad. Also legit I think people say TBN is bad because it is not HOS.

[Kleeya]

Regardless, the whole DPS mentality is the fault of the dev team not the players.

I still remember my first dungeon on the game. At the time i was conjurer, and since i didn't know the way i did following blindly the others. Some time after that, looking at the achievements window, i was like "uh, why didn't i get the exploration one for Sastasha ?". Looking at the map, i did realize that the group i was with did get in a straight line from point A to point B without doing all the optionals rooms, not giving me the achievement. I remember very clearly thinking then, even though i was new, that it was like that the players were wanting to be done with the dungeons as fast as possible. Strangely now, we have only straight lines with the (2 packs of mobs + 1 boss)x3 formula who does perfectly fit this.

What do i want to say with that ? That it is way too easy to say that the game being more and more dps centric is all the devs fault. For my part i think that they are looking at what the players are doing, and are orienting the game in this direction. To give us what we show them that we want.

I don't remember the devs aiming a gun to all the tanks at the end of SB, shouting "don't use your tank stance and aggro combo ! Don't do it ! What, the dps are taking the aggro back even though they did use diversion and lucid dreaming correctly ? Don't do that anyway, it will be very bad for your dps, very bad !".

I don't remember as well the same scene with the devs shouting at all the AST "don't use another card than balance ! Don't do it ! What, you want to use the defense bole on the tank so that he can handle that huge pack of mobs more easily ? Don't do that, balance is better because more dps and a fight finishing more quickly means less heals and is a form of mitigation !".

I could take other examples, but you get my point : the devs did never force the players to get mad when an instance did take a bit longer by playing more carefully. It was the player's own choice. Backed by all the dps centric theorycrafting, and enhanced by the you know what website where even tanks and healers are ranked primarily by their dps, and not by how well they keep aggro/mitigate TB or how well they heal their teammates. And where even expert dungeons are ranked by how fast you complete them.

And seeing all that, it is just logical that SE thinks "eh, seems like our players dont care about crowd control, defense and such, and love only to dps more and more and having big numbers. Let's give them what they want !". It might come as a shock to you, but getting and keeping more customers is easier by studying them, and making them satisfied with what they desire.

[Veis_Alveare]

what.

The reason people blame the devs for the dps-focused mentality of the playerbase is because the devs have never given us anything else to try for.

As a healer what is my reward for standing around and doing nothing? How about horribly overhealing? How about emote spam? None of these get me anything. Know what gets me a real reward? Dpsing.

It's the same in your other examples - there is no advantage to losing a Balance for a Bole on the old AST card system or for sitting in tank stance, those things didn't reward you. The only real reward is clearing the instance so you can do more things to get more exp/tomes/gear/whatever. Even if you take the tangible game rewards like currency out of the equation doing an instance quicker let's you (as a player) do more things and gain more experience on your job.

Don't get me wrong, as someone who's played healers for years I would love if I had an actual need to focus on my healing in casual content. Give me dungeons where I'm on the edge of my seat and small mistakes can actually cost the group a full wipe. That would make people focus less on dps as a healer for sure!

The issue would then become that many people... just wouldn't be able to heal. If you're bad at healing now increasing the amount you need to heal isn't going to suddenly mean you're good at healing (although it might cut down on your overheal) it'll just mean that you won't be able to clear a larger portion of the available content.

If you can think of a way for the devs to force me to focus on keeping a party alive in casual content without also making it impossible for most princess uwu pure healers who don't understand their buttons to complete I'm all ears, SE won't risk alienating those people though.

As for the topic of this thread... lmao. Just lmao.

I'm very happy to call out people on the high end when they're being idiots and expecting too much, I love that thats already happened in this thread about one of the most unironically toxic streamers out there, but to act as if the damage done to this community by elitism is in any way comparable to the damage done by militant casuals is to just put your blinders on and stick your head in the sand.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen actual degrading toxicity ingame meant to demean someone for their poor performance, but I would be at a total loss if I tried to tally up the instances of toxic casuals acting entitled to their bad play as if it didn't negatively impact 3/7/23 other people. It's nearly constant. It permeates many novice networks and there's always a decent chance you'll see it for just some requests like asking for a healer to dps or for another player to AoE on trash packs. I'd repeat things I've been called when asking for those very things but I don't need to get banned from the forums right now.

[Ririta]

I don't remember the devs aiming a gun to all the tanks at the end of SB, shouting "don't use your tank stance and aggro combo ! Don't do it ! What, the dps are taking the aggro back even though they did use diversion and lucid dreaming correctly ? Don't do that anyway, it will be very bad for your dps, very bad !".

I don't remember as well the same scene with the devs shouting at all the AST "don't use another card than balance ! Don't do it ! What, you want to use the defense bole on the tank so that he can handle that huge pack of mobs more easily ? Don't do that, balance is better because more dps and a fight finishing more quickly means less heals and is a form of mitigation !".
.

Gordias did one hell of a damage to this game's playerbase...

And seeing all that, it is just logical that SE thinks "eh, seems like our players dont care about crowd control, defense and such, and love only to dps more and more and having big numbers. Let's give them what they want !". It might come as a shock to you, but getting and keeping more customers is easier by studying them, and making them satisfied with what they desire.

At launch we did that all the time. Tanks marked things, black mages slept when that patrol pack aggroed, white mages were scolded by putting regen on the tank before he pulled or, god forbid, casted Medica II and got their faces mauled.

Dungeon speedruns were a really touchy topic back in ARR, when the devs preferred to listen to the "I just want to get in, grab my tomes and leave!" crowd and started nerfing everything, even the battle system itself... yeah, that's their fault.

I'm not saying that what we have now is bad, but I disagree with blaming the players for the "DPS" mentality. We could've gone either way.

[Canada_bangs]

The thing is she's not wrong though. The players are the ones who go and speed run everything because reasons. SE didn't tell them to do that so when SE designs the dungeons like this it's because players don't actually explore all the areas. And ARR dungeons had different places to go for the most part, but what did people do? They complained everything was too hard and boom. Nerfs all around so I am in agreement that it's kindof the players fault. Is SE completely innocent? No. But niether is the playerbase either.