"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Lucy_Pyre]

The people demanding uptime strategies

A well known youtuber openly said The Blackest Night was a bad skill. These arent my words, they are words from other people, and most people agree if it doesnt break "you used it wrong." Which is not true. The action is designed to reduce damage. Just because you didnt use it to its full potential (it breaks) doesnt mean its used wrong.

Because you should be doing the mechanics properly. Purposefully failing a mechanic to push damage

Again do we not play the same game? Or have you just never pugged in your life? Because this stuff happens regularly in pugs.

Just going to correct a bunch of things here, point for point.

-First of all, once you're a month or more into a tier where people have access to much more gear there is zero excuse to not do uptime strats. It kills the boss faster and it's more efficient. Moreover, if I were to go and do E2S right now and my group didn't skip Quietus and Cycles I would instantly leave that group because such poor performance with how much we outgear that content now is just unacceptable.

-If TBN does not break then you have objectively used it incorrectly. A TBN that doesn't break is nothing more than a waste of 3,000 mana and it really is as simple as that. The fact of the matter is that damage is king in XIV, and a non-broken TBN is a direct loss of 500 potency, thus translating to using the skill wrong if it doesn't break.

-Unless the melee/tank player intentionally failing a mechanic to gain uptime results in someone dying or the raid wiping then there is absolutely no reason for said melee/tank player to NOT ignore that mechanic. There are only two times that a mechanical failure actually matters, and those are if it gives a damage down or if the vuln that it would give you will directly translate to your death. Outside of those two specific situations you should absolutely eat the mechanic to gain uptime.

-Yes hello, pugged the entire Eden's Gate savage tier as well as all of my EX clears. I can safely say that I have had nothing but positive results when 'ignoring' mechanics for uptime, when doing uptime strats, and have had nothing but negative results when failing to break TBN.

[iAxX23]

This has to be a bait/troll thread. No way this person is serious.

But in case it isn't... Normal fights have incredibly relaxed enrages that are almost double the enrage timers for savage because they're supposed to be easily completable by any player. You're not entitled to clearing savage as a healer that refuses to DPS. Uptime strats exist because it helps skip mechanics that otherwise might be hard to execute as seen on e2s and e6s and because the extra dps helps mitigate any mistakes players might make down the line.

With that being said. I don't believe a full team of people that average greys on Savage fights can even get past LL in Ultimates. You simply haven't read your spells and lack the knowledge to play your job correctly. You will immediately become a middle of the pack blue player as soon as you read your spells and understand that you should always be casting. Greens and Greys are usually for those that have either died, taken damage debuffs or simply aren't using the full extent of their job to play the game.

Good players already understand the simple fact that you should always be casting. If a mechanic doesn't allow you to cast because you're a melee player you have to come up with a way to get around that which is what good players do.

In game hit P, open your Abilities menu and read every single spell, use the myriad of resources out there such as The Balance and Akhmorning that will help teach you how to play your job correctly and stop making awful threads.

[Veis_Alveare]

Go google “Koike incident".

Don't fall for the bait any more guys, this literally must be a troll post.

There is no way someone would be... a word I can't say on the forums enough to unironically try this.

[ForteNightshade]

I still remember my first dungeon on the game. At the time i was conjurer, and since i didn't know the way i did following blindly the others. Some time after that, looking at the achievements window, i was like "uh, why didn't i get the exploration one for Sastasha ?". Looking at the map, i did realize that the group i was with did get in a straight line from point A to point B without doing all the optionals rooms, not giving me the achievement. I remember very clearly thinking then, even though i was new, that it was like that the players were wanting to be done with the dungeons as fast as possible. Strangely now, we have only straight lines with the (2 packs of mobs + 1 boss)x3 formula who does perfectly fit this.

What do i want to say with that ? That it is way too easy to say that the game being more and more dps centric is all the devs fault. For my part i think that they are looking at what the players are doing, and are orienting the game in this direction. To give us what we show them that we want.

A lack of incentive.

The issue with those branching paths is once people have read the lore tidbits or deem the coffer not worth their time, why bother going down a dead end? I've ran Sastasha hundreds of times now between my main and several alts. Why do I have any reason to explore? You have to incentivize things to make people to do them, which is a big complaint people have with the lack of longevity content often has in this game. Look at say, Ocean Fishing. It has a minion and mount, but once you obtain both, you literally have no reason to touch the content again unless you want to. Now they can't offer incentives forever but if going a different route led to increased tomes, maybe even a different boss fight (i.e., you can't go back the way you came), you'd see people more willing to explore.

I don't remember the devs aiming a gun to all the tanks at the end of SB, shouting "don't use your tank stance and aggro combo ! Don't do it ! What, the dps are taking the aggro back even though they did use diversion and lucid dreaming correctly ? Don't do that anyway, it will be very bad for your dps, very bad !".

I also don't remember the devs making tank stance worthwhile either. When I can go an entire Savage fight without ever touching tank stance, why am I going to? Once again, it falls to incentivize. By putting a 25% damage penalty on tank stance, you need a serious justification to convince players to swap. In UCoB, you'd see tanks actually take that hit. Why? Risking a wipe in Ultimate prog just wasn't worth a bump in your damage. Just to give perspective on how poorly designed tank stance was. Forcing a Monk to use Purification, which cost them a Forbidden Charka usage, netted a lower rDPS loss than if you forced the tank to go into tank stance and aggro combo.

When you couple that failure of design with Diversion being easily accessible and carrying no penalty meant tanks have no reason, barring low ilvl, to swap their stance. Once again, the playerbase adapted to the design of the game.

I don't remember as well the same scene with the devs shouting at all the AST "don't use another card than balance ! Don't do it ! What, you want to use the defense bole on the tank so that he can handle that huge pack of mobs more easily ? Don't do that, balance is better because more dps and a fight finishing more quickly means less heals and is a form of mitigation !".

You'll actually find very few Astros who complained about this. In fact, you'l find more now demanding the old system back. Nevertheless, you said it yourself. Balance is king because damage is. That's a design choice not a player one. Why am I going to prioritize Bole over Balance when the overwhelming majority of content barely requires much healing to begin with? That extra mitigation just isn't necessary, thus there's no incentive. Once again, that falls onto the dev team for not making utility and mitigation more important. With that said, given how much backlash ShB Astro has received. One could argue the devs overreacted.

I could take other examples, but you get my point : the devs did never force the players to get mad when an instance did take a bit longer by playing more carefully. It was the player's own choice. Backed by all the dps centric theorycrafting, and enhanced by the you know what website where even tanks and healers are ranked primarily by their dps, and not by how well they keep aggro/mitigate TB or how well they heal their teammates. And where even expert dungeons are ranked by how fast you complete them.

And seeing all that, it is just logical that SE thinks "eh, seems like our players dont care about crowd control, defense and such, and love only to dps more and more and having big numbers. Let's give them what they want !". It might come as a shock to you, but getting and keeping more customers is easier by studying them, and making them satisfied with what they desire.

The devs also never incentivized it. There needs to be a reason for players to care or utilize the tools offered. Things like branching paths, tank stance and etc., serve no purpose if people have no reason to care. Control Crowd died off because they immediately began nerfing content when the slightest of amount of push back happened. Players only care about damage nowadays because this game literally offers them nothing else. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. Other games, including MMOs, have managed to make use of crowd control, mitigation and increased healing, why hasn't FFXIV? It all comes down to design, which the players have no control over. We simply adapt to what's offered.

[Bopsheezi]

Is this all the community has become recently? Squabbling with itself over every little thing?

Oh wait, I forgot this all stems from the counter community and the GCBTW mindset.

[Kamome-chan]

That's toxic elitism.

No it's not. The moment you sign for a farm party it means you have quite a good understanding of the fight.
Trying to sneak into a farm party while being not good at the fight and probably waste 7 people times shouldn't be met with kindness.

Being upset at player joining farm party while not knowing what to do is not toxic nor elitist.
Wasting people time is however toxic.

[SturmChurro]

Perfect free popcorns for everyone , speaking of which , SE PLS BREAD EMOTE IS GREAT, GIVE US POPCORN EMOTE. ok you guys can go ahead . amuse me

I didn't even read it, not worth wasting the popcorn.

[Aellae]

I really don't get why being a "casual" is bad and why people get so offended.

Did not read all, hope it's a troll...

[Blackheart]

I really don't get why being a "casual" is bad and why people get so offended.

Did not read all, hope it's a troll...

Being a "casual" isn't bad at all, same can be said for being an "Elitist". What's bad is the communications between the two (or the lack there of) or sense of human decency when it comes to "helping a casual be better" when they don't want to or without asking. Of course this isn't always the case however, sometimes a "casual" will be rude when offered generally good advice or help which doesn't help the situation at all. It all boils down to people need to communicate better in order to improve and/or come to a common understanding.

[ForteNightshade]

If you go look at rankings speed for static groups, for Shiva, mind you. Then edit the URL at the top so it says "&page=46" at the end, it contains multiple records of groups who are "registered" statics and contain groups who's members 6/8-7/8 have full grey parses, with 1-2 people pulling green. This means, there are pugs out there not registered as statics on this site, whom havent posted, who have cleared with full grey. Very much likely.

I also wasnt saying you can clear ultimate with low damage, I said having grey parses does not make you a bad player. Which is what people very openly spread around the FFXIV. Are we even playing the same game? In your post everyone is nice and just tries to help. On twitch, and in my experience, that is not what is happening at all. I literally gave two examples of well known twitch streamers/youtubers who berate players.

Of course they're grey. You're comparing groups from widely different averages. My old group is actually on that page you linked, we cleared week two when there were significantly less players, yet you also have people listed from April, May and July. You cannot take averages like that because you're comparing people who had full crafted gear to those with nearly i500. Furthermore, clearing now with full grey is not the same as when I referenced. We have twenty+ weeks worth of gear. A grey DPS nowadays will be doing noticeably more than a green or even blue player did week three. There's a reason why raiders joke if you want gold (100), just clear fast. You have no competition.

As for Ultimate. Your comparisons are once again disingenuous. I'll reiterate, a grey parse in Ultimate will remain significantly higher than it would in Savage because the players attempting such content are so drastically low. Therefore, percentages will be much more volatile. Put another way, someone parsing grey in Savage typically means they have little to no idea how their rotation works, don't know their ABCs (Always Be Casting) or aren't DPSing as a healer. A grey parse in Ultimate might mean you died but could also mean you held DPS for a more favorable phase push, your group didn't optimize or you were on LB duty. The former is absolutely an example of a bad player while the latter isn't.

Hence why comparing Savage logs to Ultimate is silly. They are different content that attracts different people.

There are no AoE pulls in savage what are you even going on about? Did you just try to respond to me by going completely off topic, and talk about dungeon runs?

Someone never did A2S. (Don't. It's a terrible fight.)

Your "correction" to that meme didn't specify Savage. Regardless, my whole point is you were mis-characterizing the meme in order to defeat an argument it never intended to make. In other words, you were strawmanning.

I'm not taking it too seriously. The people who harass players constantly and refuse to work as a team, are.

The people demanding uptime strategies, even if everyone in their static isnt comfortable with it. I specifically said my point was everyone should work together, and do what is necessary for the group to succeed. That includes casting extra clemencies, using The Blackest Night even if it might not break immediately or at all if it means it gives the healer time to do focus on someone else who needs it for making a mistake. You know, teamwork and understanding, and accepting ideas that arent directly surrounding "pushing more damage."

Someone putting in a guide "bully them to do uptime!" is no different than a NEST video. Is NEST now bullies and harassers? Come on. It's tongue in cheek, dude.

What is uncomfortable about changing strategies once you've cleared several times? There is no reason not, especially since it will increase overall damage thus making the kill faster and safer since you may skip mechanics you otherwise wouldn't. Nevertheless, if you only want to stick with the strat you learned, more power to you. Not everyone will feel the same way. Those players are just as entitled to a strategy which benefits their interests as you are to yours. If y'all can't reach a compromise, well, someone may have to find a new group.

Like I said, Clemency will see quite a bit of use throughout prog. It's only considered bad if five weeks in, the Paladin still resorts to Clemency to keep themselves alive. That means your healers haven't learned how to properly heal or simply aren't paying attention. Now if you're in a casual group where no one really cares. You do you. But you can't expect to carry that mentality outside your casual static and not be criticised for it.

As for TBN, there is never a scenario where using TBN and it not breaking was a benefit even with a struggling healer. If the boss cannot break TBN, that means the damage was insignificant enough you didn't need mitigation. For the sake of argument, let's pretend you did. Your co-tank can offer Nascent Flash, Aurora, Heart of Stone, intervention or Cover. All of which are far better alternatives that do not carry a 500 potency DPS loss. That Youtuber you keep citing either is being hilariously misquoted or has no idea how to play Dark Knight and should be promptly ignored.

Because you should be doing the mechanics properly.

Purposefully failing a mechanic to push damage in a situation where its going to cause issues or even a wipe, because now the tank is dead and the boss is running around 2 shotting the party?

Except in the very response of mine you quoted, I provided an example where collecting seven vulnerability stacks still didn't kill me. Now that was a dungeon, but the overall point remains. Like Lucy said, vuln stacks only matter if the next mechanic will kill as a result of that stack. In E6S, I'll die as a DPS if I stand in the giant circle AoE due to also being tethered. Therefore, I'll disengage to avoid it. Conversely, in that same fight you will often seen pug groups default to A for "soccer" despite it resulting in a vuln stack for the entire party. No one cares though because it means they can ignore a mechanic and nothing Ifrit does thereafter threatens the party enough for it to matter.

Once again, your example is a strawman. In such a scenario, people aren't going to intentionally take said vuln stack because they know it will kill them.

Again do we not play the same game? Or have you just never pugged in your life? Because this stuff happens regularly in pugs.

You do realize there are people who are progressing savage at the end of a tier, like some probably literally final day before the next raid drops? Those people.

They do "deserve" and can achieve clears. But so long as there are people who refuse to work as a team and demand high dps performance from the party, and tolerance levels for people struggling are bottom of the barrel, you're going to continuously turn people away from savage, and the community is going to continue to become more entitled.

Seriously. Look at party finder. Tell me how many people are selling savage clears? Do we play the same game??

Lastly, again, people instantly leave after 1-2 wipes. The tolerance is extremely low, and people refuse to work together, and discuss the wipes, and adjust to the group.

Everyone expects high damage "bring da deeps" constantly and people are not helpful overall.

I could honestly ask you the same question. But yes, I pug. In fact, I pugged last tier well over a hundred times if you combined all four fights. Believe me, I know full well how pugs work.

No one "deserves" a clear. You are not entitled to clearing Savage simply because you want to. Working as a team doesn't mean Paladins spamming Clemency, Dark Knights having no idea how TBN works and etc. That is simply poor play, especially later into the tier where gear allows significantly more mistakes. A Paladin having to repeatedly use Clemency that far into a tier's lifespan either means they're far too cautious and/or the healers aren't ready for Savage content.

What does selling content have to do with anything? There will always be people who prefer to pay for things than learn for themselves.

You're assuming that intolerance only derives from a lack of patience. Now people certainly are impatient, however you need to consider context. In Savage parties, most people are running a parse. That person who bailed after 2-3 pulls may be doing so because they saw less than impressive numbers. And I'm not talking slightly below average but more along the lines of both healers combining for less than 4k DPS or you, as the Dancer, several thousand above everyone else in a weekly two chest. Those tend to be warning signs. In a learning party, where people are struggling with mechanic they may not know. That's a bit more understandable. But in a weekly two chest, people have a higher expectation since you should know the fight, and thus, know how to perform.

Mistakes will, of course, happen. But they shouldn't be overly frequent or have DPS gaps like the one I mentioned.

Another thing to keep in mind is you have no idea how long that person who bails so fast has been attempting to clear. Maybe they were willing to work through mistakes three hours ago but by this point, their patience has run out and they'll bounce at the first sign the party looks bad.

Once again, you aren't obligated to help someone clear. And you are allowed to have reasonable expectations. Going into a learning party and expecting top tier performance makes you a jerk. Going into a two chest weekly and leaving when people can't get passed Furies Fourteen after three attempts, does not.