We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Kabooa]

You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.

I'm just going to echo this.

Redoing the Invulns into other 'Super-state' abilities would be my preferred course of action.

[Lyth]

Redoing the Invulns into other 'Super-state' abilities would be my preferred course of action.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Kabooa]

Can you elaborate on this?

Removing the invuln part and replacing it with other potential BAMF buffs.

Spitballing a few examples

Warrior's super-state involves extreme HP inflation. They'd gain something like 200% more health and healing received, and damage they take is converted to a flat damage bonus to Beast spenders.

Paladin gains extremely high shield strength, damage reflection, and MP gain on block.

Gunbreaker's Brutal Shell trait would apply on cartridge spenders and stack, letting them ramp up shields that reflect absorbed damage.

Dark Knight gets a berserker state with increased damage, mitigation, and healing received as health lowers. The mitigation multiplier wouldn't be 1:1. The Dark Knight would be closer to death at 5/100 health than at 100/100, but would have such stupid reduction that 5/100 is more like 75/100.

So a super-state is effectively just a high offense/defense boost. We keep the two entwined to add some room for optimization, we pair it with the removal of tankbuster vulns, and remove the 20% mitigation from Tank Mastery to encourage fluff, short, and Rampart usage on things that aren't "tank killers". Not much, but it's a start.

[Miminming]

You were the one referencing E4S. Conveniently omitting E8S which has a ludicrous higher amount of PLD than any other tank.

As for Ultimates, yeah I'm not gonna argue TBN makes DRK quite strong in terms of mitigation for those fights, but this isn't about that. Of course the best healers can work with LD and have done so since day one. WAR also used to be able to tank just fine in 4.0 and 2.0, but clearly needed changes as well.

Again, all the tanks need changes. LD is just what DRK needs fixed and it's been that way for 5 years.


Edit -

E8S clear numbers:

PLD - 6162
DRK - 4627
GNB - 3549
WAR - 3048

TEA clear numbers:

PLD - 599
DRK - 561
WAR - 209
GNB - 190

That said, again, this is a poor way of adjusting skills and it's the best way to ensure broken skills never get fixed.

It was a counter argument towards your claim that GNB and PLD are the best tank, which claiming thats the reason DRK need the fix of the not broken LD.

GNB is never ever even close to DRK in term of best tank, PLD only best at OT and is actually BAD at MT, which DRK excel at.

While the number of clear parse may not be the best mean adjusting skill, it is a statistic to be accounted for.

And again GNB is not the best tank, and you claim is without reason.

QUOTE=Lyth;5378049]You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.[/QUOTE]

Then no point in discussing LD because all fight is surviveable without it.

[DWolfwood]

It was a counter argument towards your claim that GNB and PLD are the best tank, which claiming thats the reason DRK need the fix of the not broken LD.

GNB is never ever even close to DRK in term of best tank, PLD only best at OT and is actually BAD at MT, which DRK excel at.

While the number of clear parse may not be the best mean adjusting skill, it is a statistic to be accounted for.

And again GNB is not the best tank, and you claim is without reason.

QUOTE=Lyth;5378049]You don't get scored based on how much damage you mitigate, any more than you get scored based on how much enmity you generate. You either live, or you die. That's why invulns trivialise mitigation checks. You can't even begin to discuss anything else until that's out of the way.

Then no point in discussing LD because all fight is surviveable without it.

If you reread what I originally said, I put them in "quotes" to emphasis that there is no real best tank these days since they're largely all the same.

Furthermore, I've been saying I think it's dumb reasoning to not adjust bad skills such as Living Dead, just because the rest of their kit outweighs others in certain situations.

[Miminming]

It's dumber to look at balance seperatedly between overall defense and invul instead of the entire class design.

[cactuarzzzz]

It's dumber to look at balance seperatedly between overall defense and invul instead of the entire class design.

Ah yes, because the class design of DRK is having the pitiful self heal while bearing the invuls that required the most healing. Oh why can't we see how DRK is perfectly balanced right now?

[Lyth]

Most healing doesn't happen on the GCD.

[Miminming]

Ah yes, because the class design of DRK is having the pitiful self heal while bearing the invuls that required the most healing. Oh why can't we see how DRK is perfectly balanced right now?

Oh why can we see the damage TBN actually migiyated is more than ay othe healing a tank do with out sacrificing their DPS, OH why can't people see somethimg so simple?

Require more healing and don't forget longest invul and not longest CD, bad? Hard to heal? Heh, Git gud

(If using a gcd purely for healing is counted PLD is the healing winner but that just dumb-dumb)

[cactuarzzzz]

Oh why can we see the damage TBN actually migiyated is more than ay othe healing a tank do with out sacrificing their DPS, OH why can't people see somethimg so simple?

Require more healing and don't forget longest invul and not longest CD, bad? Hard to heal? Heh, Git gud

(If using a gcd purely for healing is counted PLD is the healing winner but that just dumb-dumb)

Longest Invul intensify I'm sure nobody gonna expect you to know what's dumb.