Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Nedkel]

I would say, stop assuming the skill level of the players. There more players in a group then just a tank and healer. Pulling wall to wall is a group effort, that requires high skill, and understanding of the dungeon. Not every level 80 you see will know their job front to back or be vet players. Not all players in the group will know the dungeon front to back.

You can claim dungeons are dumb down FOR YOU only, you cant speak on the behalf of others. I have personally wiped trying to large pulls, due to the dps simply not being geared for it, or the healer not used to healing it. wall to wall pulling should NEVER be forced on players who are not ready, it ruins the fun of everyone.

One thing im starting to dislike is Meta is all or nothing in ff14, but there is 0 communication in game. People seem to despise it. Only times i had good large pulls as a healer were with my fc mate who made it known in advance. Not everyone looks up the forums, watches videos, or is in an fc. They may not know the meta is tanks pull boss to boss or nothing.

I also find it petty to DEMAND tanks NEED to pull wall to wall. i have done every dungeon from sastasha to stone vigil as both large and small pulls, i honestly do not notice that much of a time difference.

what I do notice as a tank, is healer rely on freecure trait a bit much and died to healers going Oom. I also notice as more and more fresh ppl join the game, i see no one really keeping gear up to date. Even a few fc mates noticed in higher level dungeons just ppl not upgrading their gear. Like one ran into a dancer with lvl 17 gathering gear in a dungeon called the aery.

lastly, people who are forcing the meta with a my way or the high way attitude under the guise of (but the other members of the party) are typically called a word starting with E. ff11 had a rule of friends do not let friend be an E. Communicate with your party so everyone is on the same page, never force your playstyle on others.

Nah it doesnt require high skill, its really a casual content.
The only dungeons that are somewhat challenging are lvling ones on specific lvl bracket as they have some wonky scaling and mobs hits more than they do in other dungeons.

Its really not hard to pull wall to wall and hold the mobs, the only difficulty that comes when playing a tank is to maintain the proper dps rotation and avoid aoe damage from mobs, thats it. I may even say that even if you dont really do your rotation properly like just aoe comboing 99% of time, its still better if you pull everything than to pull 1 group and do everything perfectly on your tank.
Your dps doesnt matter that much on a tank, all what it matters is if you are fast and fluid and could use cooldown, everything else is just an addition to your job as a tank.
Its cruel and sour truth, but it is what it is, thats why i left all my 4 tanks and went for healers.

[Yue_Amariyo]

I use Rescue to pull people out of dangerous zones that will kill them. I've saved many people that way. Healers worried about using it accidentally should just bind it to a modifier key. So instead of having it on X, I have it on Shift+X so I can't "accidentally" press it. Plenty of skills in this game can be used to irritate players. Doesn't mean they should be removed from the game or changed in a way that will make them useless. Certain tanks have an ability that drops their HP to 1 in exchange for limited invulnerability. I know more than a few who like to use it after they know I've blown my big heals on purpose; they even have a "healers adjust" macro attached to it, and get a laugh out of me dealing with their "mistake." But you don't see me coming here demanding they remove the skill from the game, because that skill has value in the right hands. It's the same case with Rescue.

For whatever it's worth, I do agree that if your healer's basically leashing you through a dungeon, they should try better communication methods. But the skill does have very useful applications, especially for helping new players, and what you're asking for would ruin a lot of enjoyment for people who actually enjoy supporting their party.

the skill is very pointless actually, anyone should be able to get out of bad on their own with out their hand being held. Fact is, it only is 1 player, and on a long cool down. If it was party wide, and on a shorter cool down imo it be better. imo a more useful skill would be an aoe esuna, or a healer interrupt skill, or a dispel skill to remove mob buffs. From my experience, your way of using it is not the norm. Party support can be done in different ways, pulling someone in a jarring way is not being supportive in my opinion. That is akin to telling a fat person to eat less, and taking away their food. You do not know the circumstances, and have no right to exert force on another.

If rescue must be in the game, i vote on a different animation. Like a rope/chain effect or something akin to a teleportation. Something less jarring then a puff of light and easily ignored sound fx

also not all healers play pc or with M+kb find a good spot for rescure on the cross hotbar, that is not prone to misclick, or hard to use spot can be a challenge. I myself am on ps4, and have a hard time wuth placing my cure 1 and cure 2 as it is.

[Yue_Amariyo]

Nah it doesnt require high skill, its really a casual content.
The only dungeons that are somewhat challenging are lvling ones on specific lvl bracket as they have some wonky scaling and mobs hits more than they do in other dungeons.

Its really not hard to pull wall to wall and hold the mobs, the only difficulty that comes when playing a tank is to maintain the proper dps rotation and avoid aoe damage from mobs, thats it. I may even say that even if you dont really do your rotation properly like just aoe comboing 99% of time, its still better if you pull everything than to pull 1 group and do everything perfectly on your tank.
Your dps doesnt matter that much on a tank, all what it matters is if you are fast and fluid and could use cooldown, everything else is just an addition to your job as a tank.
Its cruel and sour truth, but it is what it is, thats why i left all my 4 tanks and went for healers.

again you are speaking on the behalf of others when you can only speak for yourself. Really should work on not doing that. Difficulty is subjective from person to person. one persons casual, can be another persons hardcore. Like i find darks souls games to be easy, but i cant get past the first pitfall in world 2-1 in super Mario. Yet i see a lot of people claim dark souls games are pretty hardcore, yet find mario to be a casual walk in the park. It varies person to person, and based on their experience.

What i notice with the ff14 community is perspective bias, they think how they feel/think is how everyone feels and thinks. Added by confirmation bias based on the random chance of finding like minded people. I honestly found tanking outside of being with fc mates to be hard. My first dungeon as a tank i left, simple because i was not ready to large pull just yet as I was still figuring my skills out. Yet the healer all but demanded it so by running ahead. I left as i had asked nicely for him to stop, yet he refused. I asked to be vote kicked, the party refused. I left, the healer then went out of his way to PM me saying some pretty nasty comments.


Also to add, my fc mate (the one who i wrote a story about on the vent thread) tried helping their bf get a level on their blm. the group was mnk war, her on sch, him on blm. She doesnt main heal often, and told the party such. the tank being gracious decided to not large pull. her bf sensed something amiss. stuff was not dying that fast, and tank was taking in a lot of dmg. it turns out the mnk and tank were extremely undergeared for the dungeon. She got stressed (she is autistic) and did her best.
The mnk got some upgrades, but nothing improved. Turns out the mnk didnt put the upgrades on, and cited glamour being the reason. She was flabbergasted, and ask the mnk to put them on (tank was dc at this point due to spotty net) mnk refused, and promptly vote kicked.

thing is, the new dps assumed the situation, and pulled mobs for the tank. healer, due to fairy, got the enmity and tried, yet failed to keep the tank up. tanks hp was basically a wet napkin. group wiped. thing is the fc mate is lvl 80, yet she rarely heals, so she wasn't ready to heal a pull like this, more so with a undergeared tank.
the dungeon in question was iirc qitain ravel or something. Only sharing because she posts video in our discord and asks us if she was in the wrong or not. She is trying to work on peer to peer communication.

also by high skill i mean being a player who knows their job/role inside and out, and knows the dungeon inside and out. Who knows which cd to use when, not everyone will know this. It requires your gear to be up to date as well. you can claim but.. lvl 80.. all you want, it doesnt help your stance any, nor make you in the right. Just because someone is lvl80, doesnt mean they play the job often. You also have 0 idea what is going on behind the screen, at any moment family, friends, pets can disrupt play. This can make large pulling harder, as they may not always be looking at the screen.

Also to note, i am speaking of my own personal experiences, just speaking it in a general tone, or cited experiences from my fc mates.

I do hope you work on not speaking foe everyone, and only of yourself/close friends.

[Veis_Alveare]

again.

You're being really passive aggressive and it's absolutely infuriating to read. Please try to be direct with your problems instead of this really poor communication style you've got going on.

You want to say dungeons are difficult for some people - that's true! But it doesn't mean that doing full pulls requires a high skill level from even most of the group. Let's explore.

This all hinges on the tank actually pulling big so we have to assume he is. What does he need to do? He needs to have tank stance on. He needs to make contact with each enemy a few times to maintain threat. It would be nice if he appropriately used defensive CDs but ultimately this can be compensated for but the healer so it doesn't really get to be called necessary. It'd also be great if he dished out some damage but, again, it certainly isn't what anyone could call mandatory for the completion of the pull.

Healers? To handle a big pull they need to not blow all their CDs at once. That's all. You can get by spamming your Cure 2/Benefic II/Physic/Adlo if you really need to. Using Lucid Dreaming and other MP tools would be nice but honestly unless a pull is taking an inordinate amount of time you don't even really need to. Like tanks it'd be nice if healers dpsed but the lack of it isn't wiping a big pull.

Then we have dps. They need to... do some semblance of an AoE rotation? You don't need your DNC to have banked 80+ esprit, 4 feathers and their tech/devilment window to handle a full pull, if they're just pushing the buttons that hit more than one enemy you'll make it eventually. Same goes for any other dps. It would be nice if they optimized to focus their resources on burning down big pulls over bosses since that's where the tank damage comes from but it certainly isn't necessary.

So please explain how any of the necessary elements of wall to wall pulling require skill? If you have a tank and two dps spamming inefficient AoE rotations and a curebot just focus targeting the tank and tunneling on his hp bar you'll clear any pull in current max level roulettes.

The rest of your post is filled with nonsense and excuses. Just because someone is 80 doesn't mean they play the job often? Sure, but if they're taking the job into a group of other random players they need to understand their skills first. They might be getting interrupted? If this is happening often enough to not be a fringe niche case maybe they need to log off and feed their children or whatever. Still their own fault.

The assumption that everyone can handle a full pull is being made because everyone can handle a full pull. If you can't you need to look into what you're doing wrong before you play again. Can the issue sometimes be someone else? Sure, I'm not blaming the healer if the tank stands in multiple overlapping AoEs or is wearing gear from 15 levels ago but those experiences are so few and far between the time lost by single pulling far outweighs any potential wipes to pulling too big.

The last thing I'll say is if you continue to experience a problem in this game you need to look in a mirror. If every big pull you're in seems to fail the common denominator is you. What are you not doing correctly? Read up, figure stuff out. We are all responsible for our own performance and we owe it to our party members to do our best to achieve expedient completion of all our instances.

[Shalan]

In higher level content, if a tank is so bad that doing larger pulls is considered difficult, they need to change roles and play something else.
For the tank just about nothing changes in the pull. Grab aggro on groups, get face pummeled in. CDs are apparently optional since I only see 1/3 tanks using them properly nowadays, and healers can utilize their own CDs to pull through a tank not using theirs. It'll be close and probably give the healer a heart attack but from experience, it's doable.

If they're having issues with simply grabbing aggro and maintaining it (especially in this age of simplified tanking) and pressing their CDs, they need to stick to lower level/easier content till they're more confident or change to something easier. Read your tooltips and wail on a dummy for a half hour. Then run some easier dungeons for a while to make sure you know how things work. Then steadily work your way up through content with progressively larger pulls.
Coddling people and telling them it's okay to play poorly just ensures they'll always pick the easier option and do small pulls, meaning they won't ever gain the necessary skills or confidence to properly perform their roles.

And pulling small in anything past the Vaults is just that, playing poorly. Might as well replace your tank with a DPS at that point, you can heal through small pulls wailing on a DPS, and the extra damage output would be appreciated.

[Gemina]

Nah it doesnt require high skill, its really a casual content.
The only dungeons that are somewhat challenging are lvling ones on specific lvl bracket as they have some wonky scaling and mobs hits more than they do in other dungeons.

It's casual in the sense that they are designed to be cleared. This means that they allow for a large margin of human error, and players will still be able to clear it without wiping. However with large pulls, this margin for error is greatly decreased, and this particular pull inside of a casual dungeon becomes extreme. In these cases, if the players don't use their resources correctly, or they are not available; things get messy real quick. While large pulls still don't require the coordinated efforts of its participants like an EX or Savage encounter does; it still does require a basic and fundamental understanding that all players are on the same page.

What really happens inside of an efficient dungeon run via DF, are four players adjusting to each other. The more experienced and open-minded they are, the faster it happens. When this does happen, that tells me these four players are of a very high skill level even though the content is casual. A huge part of player skill level doesn't just have to do with being able to comprehend and execute mechanics; it also has a lot to do with working and adjusting to the skill level of others; whether it is higher or lower than yours.

[Nedkel]

again you are speaking on the behalf of others when you can only speak for yourself. Really should work on not doing that. Difficulty is subjective from person to person. one persons casual, can be another persons hardcore. Like i find darks souls games to be easy, but i cant get past the first pitfall in world 2-1 in super Mario. Yet i see a lot of people claim dark souls games are pretty hardcore, yet find mario to be a casual walk in the park. It varies person to person, and based on their experience.

<more stuff>.

All this stuff written does not change a fact that current expansion dungeons (and some of the previous expansion) only allows you to pull 2 groups at the time and are balanced around making it with trust, so they are made for casual casuals who have ping issues and plays on microwave, and trust me anyone on earth who hit lvl 80 in this game and is not a bot could hold 2 groups at time and not wipe. Dungeons in this game are the lowest denominator when it comes to the content difficulty, its not a rocket science to pull 2 groups aka "wall to wall" use cooldown and spam aoe.

The excuses of tanks refusing to pull more stand no ground today because of how easy it is to do dungeons today.
Of course there are dungeons that are exceptional, there are sprouts who have no idea how to play the game and there are other things too, i dont disagree with it, yet tanks should be hold accountable for their job as they are playing with 3 other people.

Healers having no experience in healing also means nothing in dungeons, to push heal button player does not need a sacred knowledge shared by generations of previous healers.
They have few healing buttons, press them when tank hp is at around 70%, thats it you could do it with one single hand, thats how easy it is.

It does not require skill, it requires some knowledge on job player is playing, and if he has his nose too high to bend down a little and read the tooltips then he deserves all the criticism he would get by not doing the bare minimum on his job, aka pull 2 groups and spam aoe... No one is asking to be a top 99% percentile in stuff they are doing, the standards are set low, really really low especially when you compare it to the other mmorpgs like:
1. tank doesnt have to manage treat - in some mmorpgs you have to
2. tank doesnt have to actively play with deffense and sustain skills, healer in FFXIV is stronk enough to heal a tank that does not use his cooldown
3. tank doesnt have to care about positioning mobs too much
4. tank doesnt have to interact with vast majority of mobs by using CC
5. tank doesnt have to know the most efficient path and mechanics in dungeon

So basically the things other games have.
FFXIV dungeons are straight forward, no skill is required to pull 2 groups at time and go forward, none, zero, null.

It's casual in the sense that they are designed to be cleared. This means that they allow for a large margin of human error, and players will still be able to clear it without wiping. However with large pulls, this margin for error is greatly decreased, and this particular pull inside of a casual dungeon becomes extreme. In these cases, if the players don't use their resources correctly, or they are not available; things get messy real quick. While large pulls still don't require the coordinated efforts of its participants like an EX or Savage encounter does; it still does require a basic and fundamental understanding that all players are on the same page.

What really happens inside of an efficient dungeon run via DF, are four players adjusting to each other. The more experienced and open-minded they are, the faster it happens. When this does happen, that tells me these four players are of a very high skill level even though the content is casual. A huge part of player skill level doesn't just have to do with being able to comprehend and execute mechanics; it also has a lot to do with working and adjusting to the skill level of others; whether it is higher or lower than yours.

Not all dungeons are created equal and some are harder than the other ones, however still majority is pretty easy and dumb.
Im not speaking about boss fight mechanics as they are always tricky, but trash mobs are the easiest thing to do in this game, like literally.
Whenever i play healer or dps i only hope for a tank that pulls 2 instead of 1, i really dont care if they will use 1 aoe skill as long as its 2 groups instead of 1. If a tank pulls 2 groups and maintain aggro and fight with a cat, watching netflix and eat doritos, all power to them its still better than having a tank pulling 1 group.

[Gemina]

Not all dungeons are created equal and some are harder than the other ones, however still majority is pretty easy and dumb.
Im not speaking about boss fight mechanics as they are always tricky, but trash mobs are the easiest thing to do in this game, like literally.
Whenever i play healer or dps i only hope for a tank that pulls 2 instead of 1, i really dont care if they will use 1 aoe skill as long as its 2 groups instead of 1. If a tank pulls 2 groups and maintain aggro and fight with a cat, watching netflix and eat doritos, all power to them its still better than having a tank pulling 1 group.

I'd argue the opposite, and say that dungeon bosses are nothing but barriers with high HP pools. Wipes hardly ever happen against bosses in dungeons. They mostly happen during large pulls. In nearly every dungeon, including the big time snorefests of Castrum and Prae, the most threatening part of the run are against the trash. The only time this is consistently reversed is for alliance raids, which most consider to just be dungeons on a grander scale as far as the overall HP pool of all the enemies combined, and the participants allowed within.

You are missing the point a bit because I've already submitted to dungeons being casual content. What I feel gets dismissed or not acknowledged when it comes to dungeons is the skill level required to execute large pulls. If you feel these are easy, then you are likely of a higher skill level, and the same can be said for your teammates. I would take care to not dismiss your own skill level for the sake of an argument with me.

The other thing about dungeons is that after a certain point, you start to realize that once you've run one of them, you've kind of ran all of them. The bones and sinew of these things are pretty much identical across the board with some variations among them that give them a different 'body'. Sure, there are exceptions, but exceptions are never the rule. That being said, most people get better at things the more they do them; while it's not erroneous to say that dungeons don't require a high skill level to clear, they most certainly do to clear efficiently.

[Yue_Amariyo]

You are missing the point a bit because I've already submitted to dungeons being casual content. What I feel gets dismissed or not acknowledged when it comes to dungeons is the skill level required to execute large pulls. If you feel these are easy, then you are likely of a higher skill level, and the same can be said for your teammates. I would take care to not dismiss your own skill level for the sake of an argument with me.

The other thing about dungeons is that after a certain point, you start to realize that once you've run one of them, you've kind of ran all of them. The bones and sinew of these things are pretty much identical across the board with some variations among them that give them a different 'body'. Sure, there are exceptions, but exceptions are never the rule. That being said, most people get better at things the more they do them; while it's not erroneous to say that dungeons don't require a high skill level to clear, they most certainly do to clear efficiently.

ya, that is what Im trying to say myself, anyone who claim all tanks need to do x, all healers need to do y, all dps need to do z, need to realize these demands are not fair, or should be reality. Not everyone is of the same skill set, temperament, or living situation. Like my first time tanking dungeon i was expected to large pull out the gate. I never tanked in an mmo before, i just barely understood how the enmity system worked and only had 1 defensive cool down. I do not think the poster/posters saying all tank should large pull are fully comprehending that fresh face tanks are being put on the same level and rule set as a level 80 tank who had 5+ years of play experience. Which is what Im saying.

Not sure how this got derailed into a discussion of whether or not everyone should be expected to do wall to wall pulls instead of the original topic but people seem to be forgetting a lot of things, some of which apply both to the original topic and what this discussion has devolved into.

Mostly because of the current opinion on what makes a tank, a tank. People are using Rescue to FORCE tanks to large pull with out communication. Stating that use is justified because if the tank is no large pulling, they are bad.

Hash out the mindset in dialog, and we can communicate the root of the issue. If people where assuming skill/gear/level in dungeons, and using rescue to force the pull no one would have much of an issue.

[Yue_Amariyo]

You're being really passive aggressive and it's absolutely infuriating to read. Please try to be direct with your problems instead of this really poor communication style you've got going on.

Im not being passive aggressive at all, if I may ask, how is saying speak for yourself, and not for others passive aggressive? That is largely what my post boils down to.

Im saying not everyone is cut from the same cloth, and difficulty is subjective, one persons easy, is other persons difficult. Using my example of finding a game like dark souls easy, but playing Mario is hard for me. While some find dark souls hard, while thinking mario is easy. I think saying skill was a bad choice now that im see people misunderstanding it, by skill I meant being an experienced player to the game, know the inner working of a role, job, and dungeon. Not everyone will have this experience.

I was expected to large pull in the very first dungeon I tanked, it was sastasha though I agree this dungeon is not hard, but i wasn't 100% sure how the tank role was set up, how enmity worked, and only had 1 defensive cool down. I think what veteran player do not understand is, not every healer will have lucid dreaming till they earn it from leveling. Not all dps have aoe right away. Yet these fresh players are being subjected to the same rules as a level 80 with years of play time. Which is what Im saying. Also you are being passive aggressive a bit in reality. And i have no idea why the people here feel think need to advocate for the community when they can advocate for themselves. It gets annoying when people speak for me, to me.

Please take a look at the reality of the situation, how fair is it that brand new players are expected to play like they are level 80? When people say/ claim ALL tank, healer, dps. They are in fact including new players. I experienced this mindset first hand.