Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[LuciferNacht]

Outside of raids I do see much issue when healers or dps feel the need to pull for me. It does not over complicate my role per-se depends if they face pull a pack of mobs and the group is so far away that they die before we can get to them. Overall though if a dps pulls I just grab the aggro and call it a day. Tank pulling is more convenient granted but it is not the end of the world if someone else pulls for the group if they are smart about it.

For me personally I do not think the tank is the only one who is capable of pulling. When I am new to a dungeon I rather have someone with experience lead the way and I just snap aggro off of them so I can get a feel for pull size from those that have ran it.

Also, as crappy as hall of the novice is for teaching people how to use their specific jobs. It's clear that the game devs think the same of this dynamic just in how they train tanks versus dps versus healers because that's just about the only thing that content teaches with those rudimentary exercises.

[Doki]

Surprised they don't give players an opt-out of rescue. I'd turn that shit on in a heartbeat. /rescuepermission off

[Awha]

It's ok to have a personal preference but your preference isn't the majority experience for this game. The tank, healer, dps dynamic is well established in MMOs beyond just FFXIV.

And at the end of the day, the bottom line is a simple line of text in party chat alleviates all this nonsense posturing about personal opinions.

Public content is about teamwork. It's not hard to communicate and if it is hard for someone maybe they should be playing solo games. It's not just about one person.

For me I just find it quicker to start a vote, if it passes cool, if it does not I either suck it up or leave (most often leave). Only other MMO's I personally have played was WoW (TBC) and FFXI, and it both of those games from my experience others pulled for the tank using CC. That is why for me I do not see the tank itself as a role that has the only capabilities of pulling. It may be easier for the tank to pull, but I will not lose sleep if a healer or even a dps pull for me, I just grab the aggro and call it a day. What role does the pulling does not change the part where the tank still has to garb the mobs to establish control.

As you said it is preference, you may feel simple line of text is easier, but for me just putting it up to a vote makes it easier. Reduces the chance of people going back and forth about the size of the pulls or speed. I see the vote feature as another means of communicating, if it passes it shows well darn maybe I did something wrong that they group did not like, or maybe they just did not like me. If it does not pass that shows well maybe this group is not meant for me. Text is not the only form of communication within the game.

Also, as crappy as hall of the novice is for teaching people how to use their specific jobs. It's clear that the game devs think the same of this dynamic just in how they train tanks versus dps versus healers because that's just about the only thing that content teaches with those rudimentary exercises.

To be frank I do not agree with a lot of things the Dev's say or do. I just do me, and thankfully I rarely run into these issues since I mostly always play tank and healer.
In the end yeah prob "toxic" by most peoples standards, but that is life.

Surprised they don't give players an opt-out of rescue. I'd turn that shit on in a heartbeat. /rescuepermission off

I am also shocked they have not done that, they did it in WoW when I played.

[FiberBundle]

even trolling a player is far from abuse.

Trolling: to harass, criticize, or antagonize (someone) especially by provocatively disparaging or mocking public statements, postings, or acts (Merriam-Webster)

I don't know, it doesn't seem that far from abuse to me.

What?
No but seriously what?

What is a pull? It's an enemy being grabbed and the start of battle right?

What is pull size? It's the amount of enemies encompassed in that pull.

Pacing is a result of pullsize in this context. Single pull = slower pacing
Double pull = faster pacing.

What role is inherently responsible for initiating and maintaining the pull while another party keeps that party alive, hopefully dpses and the last party mainly burns it to the ground?

The tank. That's the tanks job.
...

As for the rest. Yes you're toxic. It's clear. Vote kicking someone takes more time overall than just being decent and saying "hey pick up the pace, we got this".

Thank you for responding! Opinions here are shocking!

I think they meant Vote Kick if there's no agreement after asking them to pull more.

No, I think he was pretty clear on how he communicates:

I communicate but by simply voting to remove the element for the party.

For me I just find it quicker to start a vote

So, if I am learning to play a tank, and you happen to be my healer, you would ask others to kick me if pull size is not to your liking? You wouldn't ask me to pull bigger crowds, just straightaway vote?

To be frank I do not agree with a lot of things the Dev's say or do. I just do me, and thankfully I rarely run into these issues since I mostly always play tank and healer.
In the end yeah prob "toxic" by most peoples standards, but that is life.



I am also shocked they have not done that, they did it in WoW when I played.

In connection to my earlier question, is this kind of behaviour common in WoW? Kicking people without telling them why?

You know, if you kicked me, personally I'd be scratching my head, thinking "I wasn't rushing, nobody died. I thought I was doing a good job." I wouldn't even realise what went wrong.

[Awha]

Trolling: to harass, criticize, or antagonize (someone) especially by provocatively disparaging or mocking public statements, postings, or acts (Merriam-Webster)

I don't know, it doesn't seem that far from abuse to me.



Thank you for responding! Opinions here are shocking!



No, I think he was pretty clear on how he communicates:






So, if I am learning to play a tank, and you happen to be my healer, you would ask others to kick me if pull size is not to your liking? You wouldn't ask me to pull bigger crowds, just straightaway vote?



In connection to my earlier question, is this kind of behaviour common in WoW? Kicking people without telling them why?

You know, if you kicked me, personally I'd be scratching my head, thinking "I wasn't rushing, nobody died. I thought I was doing a good job." I wouldn't even realise what went wrong.

Meh, for me trolling is one of those things where you give the person all the power via your response and of reaction. I would not lump trolling in with abuse but that is probably mostly due to my upbringing where I saw real abuse between my parents, but hey if you want to lump trolling as abuse go for man, seems kind of silly imo when compared to other forms of abuse but that is me.

To be honest, not really most the time the group would just ignore the tank all together in a leveling dungeon if they were doing single pulls or were slow. Though the class dynamic differs in WoW survivability of the classes especially dps and healers is much greater.

Though to answer your main question yeah I would initiate a vote to remove ya if you were too slow for my taste. If it passes cool, does not I just leave, sometimes I stay. In the end asking someone to do something directly is bothersome, they did not do it from the start to whatever reason not my place to question it. Asking may work for some, but rather avoid that lovely moments where you ask someone and they say nah, then creates and pointless back and forth. Seen if happen while leveling a dps, someone asks for larger pulls or asks for smaller pulls and another person tells another nah l2p.

I am just not the type of player to go out my way to teach, explain, or ask someone to change how they are playing I will just see if the group wants to remove them and go from there. More power to you if you are willing to show a new tank or whatever the ropes. Sure maybe in that moment you may not realize, but either way you were able to get out of a group that for whatever reason did not wish to continue playing with ya, and you have no penalty. Seems like a win in my book.

I get my view differs greatly from the norm, but it has worked for me all this time. Sure I may not mesh well with the friendly community image FFXIV. What can ya do about it right? Sure I could be more accommodating, but does not seem worth it and probably would burn out if I tried to communicate and help each player I ran into doing someone head scratch worthy.

[Gemina]

I decided to run some dungeons as tank tonight and intentionally did smaller pulls stopping near more packs of mobs trying to bait the healer to rescue me. 10 runs and it happened only once. That's not my point though. What did happen more frequently were the DPS running ahead and pulling the mobs forcing me to pull the mobs I did have a hold of out of my Salted Earth.

What I find happening to tanks is they are forced to snag aggro on more enemies than they pull on their own; one way or another, and this has been going on even before Rescue was available to healers (I started tanking back in HW). Deleting Rescue won't stop this from happening. The one time it did happen, I noticed something. I noticed that if I had to choose between DPS pulls and Healer Rescue-pulls, I'll take the latter. It is actually more favorable since it seriously makes positioning easier, mitigates damage from the current pack since they have to catch up to me, and I also save GCDs. However, I found it to still be inefficient in comparison to the tank Leeroying the whole dungeon.

In short: Rescue isn't the problem.

[Crushnight]

In short: Rescue isn't the problem.

It never was, the problem has always been the player using it.

Smokescreen, forget other ninja skill name that gave target their enmity, were both cited as skills people would troll with, what happened most didn’t do it, they are removed now not due to the potential abuse that they could cause but because SE wanted tanks alone to deal with enmity.

Shirk was and still is cited for people to troll with it (there was one time my raid group for Alphascape literally played hot potato with Chaos normal) it is still around because of how useful it is.

Rescue will be here to stay until they designed things where they don't want it anymore, and any chance at a toggle to invalidate a single ability's existence is next to none(is there a shirk toggle? No then there won't be a rescue toggle) , and such a thing if came about would make the delay on Rescue worse.


In all my time healing since rescue was a thing i've had 1 complaint and a few fat fingers which I always apologise for and I have used rescue a lot(on average about 3/4 times a week). The one complaint; I moved a 2 vuln stacks Blm outta their leylines while solo healing due to the other healer dc'd and my tank was mt in alliance raid and they were new, my response, I do not care, my tank is taking eractic damage since they do not know when best to pop cds, I am solo healing and I do not need a 3 vuln stack Blm who would need personal mitigation for every raid wide, either dodge or die, i'd rather you live and contribute so I rescued you, deal with it. They said they would report for abuse, I said go ahead, yet to have any GM chat been a few months so I doubt it'll happen.

[Helero]

As someone who often playes tank in Dungons I have never been pulled into a mob from a healer but that might be because I am doing big pulls most of the time anyways. One exception is the big pull before the last boss in Anamnesis Anyder and I had exactly one healer (out of about 20 runs) that expressed to not agree with doing it in 2 pulls and he asked me politely in chat to pull more.

On using rescue, myself. I have used it a few times to get some sprouts to clean doom, avoid certain death mechanics etc. I pulled a tank forward exactly 1 time and that was in the wanderers palace(hard) where the mobs get a buff if they stand in the red stuff so I pulled him forward a bit so that the mobs don’t get a buff anymore and informed him in chat why I did that. (yes, you can also dps that down but no one really does that)

I have used it when I am with friends (emphasis on friends here) to pull someone over the edge with me or do some other shenanigans for laughs but that was in a controlled setting with only friends so no Randoms where harmed in the process XD

In short: rescue for me is an extremely helpful skill (especially in mentor roulet) to teach new players where to stand IF you give them an explanation in chat after/before that to tell them why you did it just randomly pulling people all over the place does not really help them if they don’t understand what is happening.

[AduroT]

Saw someone in Sunken Temple Hard use Rescue to pull a first timer out of the way of the mummies on the last boss right before he got trampled just the other day. It was pretty great.

[Parn]

Most of the times whether I'm in the role tank, DPS or Healer and another healer uses rescue on me trying to save me from one AOE they just drop me in another one. It is one thing to die from my own stupidity but dying because of other idiots makes me mad. This skill needs to removed ASAP. It is a troll skill and the game will be better without it. You don't even have to replace it just REMOVE it.