Geomancer

[Eric_Riot]

Hey All,

This is my first FFXIV game since 7, which btw I was super sad the re-release was not for PC .

Anyhow would the spell's be like this: FFXI Geomancer?. When I think Geomancer for some reason I think "Earthquake" & "Wall of Rocks" I don't think Water or Wind not that i'm against it. What FF version of Geomancer did you guys have in mind?

As to "Dancer" I was one of the ones that hoped that "Dancer" would be a "Healer" class, it would have been so cool to "Dance" you fellow's back to health.. but it ended up being just another ranged DPS *yawn*.

I do hope Geomancer is about earth AOE and AOE Healing that would be cool. Just not another range dps class.

Cheers

[BasicBlake]

Hey All,

This is my first FFXIV game since 7, which btw I was super sad the re-release was not for PC .

Anyhow would the spell's be like this: FFXI Geomancer?. When I think Geomancer for some reason I think "Earthquake" & "Wall of Rocks" I don't think Water or Wind not that i'm against it. What FF version of Geomancer did you guys have in mind?

As to "Dancer" I was one of the ones that hoped that "Dancer" would be a "Healer" class, it would have been so cool to "Dance" you fellow's back to health.. but it ended up being just another ranged DPS *yawn*.

I do hope Geomancer is about earth AOE and AOE Healing that would be cool. Just not another range dps class.

Cheers

I mean technically they could be like in 11! Their whole purpose there was support to allies and they got their own personal form of aoe elemental spells along with a gimmick that gave added benefits based on your compass position in relation to the target. As for water and wind, it’s not so much based on other games’ version of the class, in 14 they are masters of Wind, Water and Stone.

Dancer healer would have definitely been a new take and most likely interesting but ultimately probably a nightmare to balance in regards to who certain mechanics happen in raid situations. As for dancing your allies back to health, they have always been a supporting damage dealing class since the beginning so the chances of them coming in as a main heal were always very slim to zero. With Geomancers having even less healing capabilities than the already low dancer.

[Eric_Riot]

As for dancing your allies back to health, they have always been a supporting damage dealing class since the beginning so the chances of them coming in as a main heal were always very slim to zero. With Geomancers having even less healing capabilities than the already low dancer.

Yeah, I have no idea about lour, and I agree they should stick with lour. I just pictured dancers "Charming" enemy's while tossing heals around.

Well what ever they do I hope Geomancer is cool if they do got that way. I picture "Wall of Stone" blocking the enemy's off from you party.. followed by "Earthquake" that knocks them down.. then you put a "Root" on your allies to "shield" them but they can not move but also do not take damage. Then a wave of water slows the enemy but heal's your allies.. Just huge AOE stuff that looks cool and is useful.

I mean I have a White mage and she's good and all but it's pretty boring to spam her aoe stun over and over after you toss on your HoT's and then more aoe stun.. boring.

[BasicBlake]

Yeah, I have no idea about lour, and I agree they should stick with lour. I just pictured dancers "Charming" enemy's while tossing heals around.

Well what ever they do I hope Geomancer is cool if they do got that way. I picture "Wall of Stone" blocking the enemy's off from you party.. followed by "Earthquake" that knocks them down.. then you put a "Root" on your allies to "shield" them but they can not move but also do not take damage. Then a wave of water slows the enemy but heal's your allies.. Just huge AOE stuff that looks cool and is useful.

I mean I have a White mage and she's good and all but it's pretty boring to spam her aoe stun over and over after you toss on your HoT's and then more aoe stun.. boring.

Whatever healer ends up coming next is going to get the iconic one single target spell, a damage over time and one aoe spell just like the other three healers sadly.

Granted that could change in 6.0 if they overhaul healers!

[AnotherPerson]

In the BLM job quests, other BLM's primarily use their skills to summon voidsent.
The BLM job as far as the player is concerned is nothing about voidsent, while Thaumaturgy is about funeral rites.
If BLM was more like it was depicted in the job quests, it would be too similar to Summoner.
So the fact that Geomancers in the job quest of a different job entirely has a barrier skill doesn't mean all that much.
Meanwhile there's an entire questline, with a dungeon, a trial, and reference to MSQ characters, in which Geomancers are elemental spell casters and summoners. All players will have seen this, while only those who leveled AST will see the 'healer' potential.
In either case, both of these were put into the game before they ever decided what, if anything, Geomancer would be as an actual job.
And in either case 'job fantasy' is not the same thing as job quest lore. You can't make a cookie cutter copy of WHM as a job as say "the job quests show that it has completely different roots"

There will never be a 'rotational healer'. They are simplifying healing.
The next healer will have a DoT, a single target DPS spell, an AoE DPS spell, and maybe one special DPS spell, unless it has significant buffs like AST.
90% of their healing kit will be standardised, and they'll have a couple of signature moves.
Their gauge will be healing based, not dps based.
So as a Healer, a Geomancer would have a DoT that is wind/earth/water based, a single target DPS spell that is wind/earth/water based... get the picture?

They are trying to find a healer that is different.
Every call for a new healer has come with the message of "please not just another WHM clone"
Healers are already mechanically similar enough that healers all complain about it, are they really going to add one that is similar in lore as well?

Previous comments from Yoshi P included that he wants to make an eastern caster DPS, specifically an Onmyoji that is based around statuses.
Onmyoji is essentially the Japanese equivalent of Feng Shui.
I believe the in game lore likens Geomancy/Onmyoji to Conjury/Thaumaturgy, in that Geomancers are wind/earth/water based, while Onmyoji are practitioners of blood magic.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this idea went around and they refitted this into having Hingan Geomancy/Onmyoji as Conjury/Thaumaturgy respectively, while making Yanxian Geomancy more offensive based, an amalgamation of Geomancy and Onmyoji, and the basis of our new Caster DPS, Geomancer. Similarly to how Ishgardian Astrology is nothing like Sharlayan Astrology.

BLM's gameplay is completely different from a Summoner's gameplay though. That simply supports the idea that even if both of them are summoners, their method and execution are drastically different where one enhances their skills while the other calls them out to fight. Both of them are casters and still feel aesthetically different. That can work for WHM and GEO. Both uses elemental magic to a certain degree, but the execution is drastically different - one starts going into light aspected aether for heals and the lily gauge and the other focuses on a rotational gauge with shields.


Barriers ... don't seem like a problem? The whole storyline involved with GEO was how to strengthen the barrier and continually keep it going. A barrier skill doesn't mean much, but it sets up the foundations on how Kyokuho plans on proceeding his advancement without a full inheritance of the previous Geomancers. As a result, since WHM isn't focused on barriers, they can make Geomancers give barriers and mitigation fields rather than powerful heals and regens on a rotation.

The amount of healer complaints also points out that it's no longer fun to because they simplified healers and their DPS rotation. There's a huge list of complaints in the healer forums and more in the japanese forums. Considering how there's always a drought for healers in the duty finder, I doubt they wouldn't make changes in 6.0 to healer toolkits since SCH wants their DoTs back and ASTs want their card effect variety back. Otherwise, people would probably just quit entirely since healer complaints are no longer being heard and used just as an excuse to progress storyline as healer gameplay has less engagement besides pressing an oGCD heal every once in a while. Healers are already getting the short end of the stick as a -role- and are quite honestly sick of it so I wouldn't be surprised if they went in the other direction instead of simplifying healers in 6.0 because that clearly did not work, or else there wouldn't be a healer drought. A rotational DPS gauge that supports barriers and DPS seems like the right approach for a new spin on things - similar to how SCH can choose to ED or spend aetherflow actions on healing. I really would not be surprised if they made one healer a buff healer (AST) and another more DPS-like, then gave the other jobs their DPS rotations back. If anything, if they did add a new healer with the current paradigm, I'm sure SE will see more complaints on healer forums than before... and I'd wholeheartedly would want a Geomancer DPS at that point myself.

With how similar Geomancer and Onmyojis are, I wouldn't write off Geomancers not being healers or caster DPS. Instead, it could be where Geomancers with the proper inheritance become Onmyojis - the caster DPS - and the ones that follow Kyokuho and his school of thought ends up as a healer with a focus on barriers. Imo that would be the ideal situation. You get both jobs but because they took different focuses, their roles and skills ended up being different entirely.

At any rate, I just wouldn't write off Geomancers not being healers yet, but honestly it's up in the air for whatever this job becomes, if it gets added.

[SeikishiYuuki]

I lean to agree with about 90% of this, Healers are in a terrible place but not so pronounced as tanks were in 4.0. Currently yea healer kits are very simplified but that has a lot more to do with the way damage occurs in content. The way content handles damage no there's generally not a need to constantly be healing and so a lot of our time is filled with spamming our one trick DPS button and keeping a dot up. Old AST card system will almost certainly never return, we could get slightly more variety in t he cards but due to balancing issues and their goal to prevent strong metas from forming its not likely. I digress, you could make Geo a Healer that has a different execution of the same or similar elements to WHM, but why would you when you have options for a more unique healer and can place Geo to function in a unique DPS position, like the Dancer of Casters DPS. That's not to say it can't be a healer it is more like if you have 2 job options for a new healer and have one that is 20% similar to WHM and 5% similar to WHM, then go with the 5% unless you feasible can't. I'd be completely Fine getting Geomancer DPS and an Onmyuji healer that'd be cool for sure, though I still want Chemist/Medic more.

Side Note: I know 0 Astro who want old cards back, I'll admit sometimes the current card set is less interesting but it is substantially better mechanically.

[MirronTulaxia]

It’s been two years but this is an almost exact word for word copy paste of every thread on Dancer before they were shown.
“Dancer has never been a healer why would they do it now?” Vs “Devs can do whatever they want”.

Though the devs have stayed pretty true to all class roles and class fantasy or every class put into the game. But hey I guess they could always start with 6.0!

Class fantasy is subjective, and in terms of roles I could go through most jobs in this game and poke holes at their roles. As far as Dancers being healers Penelo in Revenant Wings is one.

And you have yet to acknowledge the very clear and obvious Conjurers not doing healing. The point being made is not "Geomancers will be a healer" but instead is "nothing says that Geomancers absolutely will be a Caster". I would say they could be either. It's only if you tried to say they'll be a tank or some such that I'd find it doubtful. I'm not sure why "they could be a healer" is such a heretical subject.

[BasicBlake]

Class fantasy is subjective, and in terms of roles I could go through most jobs in this game and poke holes at their roles. As far as Dancers being healers Penelo in Revenant Wings is one.

And you have yet to acknowledge the very clear and obvious Conjurers not doing healing. The point being made is not "Geomancers will be a healer" but instead is "nothing says that Geomancers absolutely will be a Caster". I would say they could be either. It's only if you tried to say they'll be a tank or some such that I'd find it doubtful. I'm not sure why "they could be a healer" is such a heretical subject.

What conjurers are not healing? I wasn’t aware I was avoiding anything I apologize! Stop being vague and alluding to stuff. Obviously if I am not aware of what conjurers are not able to heal I would have said something so out with it, don’t just accuse someone of avoiding something when you haven’t actually given in information.

While I agree class fantasy is subjective to you, most final fantasy classes have fit a very particular fantasy for 20 years. So we have a game where Dancer was mixed with white mage for Penelo and another game where dancer was mixed with geomancer. And umpteen games where dancer is just dancer. What classes in 14 (outside the obvious bard) would you say 14 has done wrongly or strayed away from the overall job/fantasy? Also looking over the wiki for the game, Penelo is the closest I would say to a healing role but in context of the game, that is still a support slot we do not have in 14. So yes over the span on the 20+ years Final Fantasy has been around, there are bound to be outliers. But overall the dancer class has been a support dps.

I feel like you pick and choose what you gleen from posts by others. When we said conjurer was said to be similar in the lore book you took that as us thinking the classes were identical. And when we say, “yeah I can see that, but I still feel it would be too similar for that role” you take it as us saying that it is 100% set in stone. Going back multiple pages multiple people have said “Yes we see where you are
Coming from but we think that is lazy on the side of designers so we don’t think so”.

[SeikishiYuuki]

Class fantasy is subjective, and in terms of roles I could go through most jobs in this game and poke holes at their roles. As far as Dancers being healers Penelo in Revenant Wings is one.

And you have yet to acknowledge the very clear and obvious Conjurers not doing healing. The point being made is not "Geomancers will be a healer" but instead is "nothing says that Geomancers absolutely will be a Caster". I would say they could be either. It's only if you tried to say they'll be a tank or some such that I'd find it doubtful. I'm not sure why "they could be a healer" is such a heretical subject.

Penelo interesting is in fact a White Mage - Dancer hybrid her healing abilities come from her White Magick so not really Healer Dancer. Since none of the Dancer abilities heal iirc.

[MirronTulaxia]

1. The knights in the Knights of the Round. Two of them don't do any healing moves.

2. What Dancer does varies from game to game. Do you want me to go through every iteration of Dancer and point out how it differs from another? Dancer is one of the most flexible of jobs. But for all its flexibility, it has never been a job that focused on being in the back of the line throwing chakrams.

3. As I've said, I don't see Conjurer and Geomancer as being similar to each other, at least any more so than any other DoM job. Summoners use Fire, Wind, and Earth, that's three element overlap with Red Mage, and the same role. Obviously you aren't going to say they're the same job, which clearly means that you can use elements in different ways, even in the same role, and have it work. The point I keep making is that you have a very subjective, personal opinion of what constitutes similar and what does not. And even if the devs agreed the changes to White Mage could very well be enough for them, even if they aren't enough for you.

You keep saying that I don't understand the opposing points, but I don't think you understand mine at all. The point, again, plainly and simply, is that how similar or not something is winds up being subjective. To you using the same elements in the same role is enough to say "too similar". To me, elements are the basest of possible things and are so fluid as to mean next to nothing (although as an aside Geomancers actually using water would be different from White Mages too, Fluid Aura is basically just fluff at this point, so I could just as easily argue White Mages only use Wind and Earth), to you they're basically the cornerstone of a job to hear you talk about it.

I thought I made it clear when I talked about job fantasy. Summoner and Scholar, same role, to me would not be the same job. They would not be too similar. To you it sounds like they wouldn't even be too similar but basically the same job. That's because to me, the job fantasy of what a Summoner is versus what a Scholar is are two very different things. The roles, the weapons, the elements. These don't define the job fantasy. You could have a White Mage that is Fire, Water, Earth, or a Black Mage that is Water, Wind, and Earth (both elemental combinations have appeared in other games) and I would still say they're the same job fantasy. The trappings, your role, your weapons, your elements, those may define the expression but what makes the job what it is doesn't change.

Penelo interesting is in fact a White Mage - Dancer hybrid her healing abilities come from her White Magick so not really Healer Dancer. Since none of the Dancer abilities heal iirc.

Her only listed job is Dancer. You can argue about what that means but it's the only listed one.