Endgame content is too stressfull and difficult

[Colt47]

Pugs may be a crapshoot, but they are definitely doable.

The fact we can all agree pugs are a crap shoot is enough reason to avoid having heavy handed win / lose content with completely random people. It's like bringing religion and politics to the dinner table and wondering what just went wrong after everyone digs their heels in with their unshakable world views. If a fight is doable with 6/8 of the people knowing and understanding the fight, than it probably is okay for a PUG. If a fight is only doable when 8/8 people know every single detail of the fight to a T, and they must also know their own class / job at level that exceeds the tools present in the game, that isn't something that should be available to random PUGs.

Ramuh is on par with a slightly more difficult primal fight and it is enough to wall most people. Going to Furor with it's loose and nuanced mechanics and needs for optimization is well beyond what most people are going to be able to do in a reasonable amount of time. Make no mistake: you can certainly teach people to do it even with pugs, but it's going to take so many sessions to pull off just from the constant rotation of people in and out that you might as well be doing something else entirely.

There is also a phenomena I call "the wave" in this game when it comes to content that runs similar to seasons. The reason that people can't seem to come to an agreement on pugs being a viable option is due to the fact that there is a wave of dedicated people at the start of each patch that live and breath for this content. Get those people in a PUG and they will definitely clear fights because they are effectively not a PUG, but one big subgroup that works together like clockwork around the same point in time. They are the ones that rush for the gear and get in and out as soon as possible.

The actual PUG group is the non-seasonal long term players that don't really fall into one of these waves. These are the long running subs that do content and their own pace and eventually get to niche content like Savage mode, and these are the people that struggle with it when it comes to PUGs. Even if they get a Static this late in the season it really wont help as much because that core group that went with the initial wave already cleared and are optimizing to farm gear. Even if a few are willing to go back and help, the majority of the initial wave want the same thing everyone else does: Go get stuff from other events and such or farm out the gear in the content they have mastered.

This brings up the interesting point that pushing savage out of PF would make sure that the right people pursue the content, but what would happen to that initial wave? Would it swap to pure statics via discord or encourage more cross world linkshells to form? It would be a worthy experiment to try at some point just to see how the community would adapt to it. If they did that they'd probably do fewer savage encounters since they'd have to push resources into making more primal EX level content for the High End Duties.

[Vidu]

So really, what is happening is that we got the blame of toxicity falling on DPS Meters (which can be proven are not the source of toxicity), and the woes of PF randomness for the difficulty of the actual savage content. The only thing SE can do to enforce this is to take the Savage content off the PF and only allow someone to queue for it with a full group of 8. They'd have to find some replacement for savage on the PF that is of lower difficulty and can offer similar rewards (like the dye-able armor versions of the Edengate or Edencall gear).

...you know whats gonna happen if they do that?
I'll tell you whats gonna happen: The usual hotspots of the current expansion - in this case Eulmore, maybe Crystarium and Ahm Araeng (due to the entrance to Eden being located there) and probably the three main ARR cities - will have their shout chat flooded with "6/8 E7S group looking for a healer and a tank!", aswell as the "open" sections in PF having groups looking for people to clear Savage with.
All that PF does right now is to make it easier for you to find a full group of 8 people - even without the PF you could still pug Savage with as much - or little - success as you can right now. It would just be a lot more inconvenient and annoying for everyone.

If you dont find Savage enjoyable with pugs and think the content should only be done with a static: Do that. Infact I agree with you - which is why I have a static. But having Savage in PF doesnt hurt me in any ways - sometimes my static even benefitted when we needed to replace someone who couldnt make a certain day on short notice. And I dont see any harm in people who cant join statics for whatever reason giving this a go without having to shout for two hours straight in Eulmore. There is no downsite to having Savage in PF - but there are a lot of good arguments to have it there.
Dont want to pug? You dont have to - its not the PF thats with holding a static position from you.

[Colt47]

There is also a phenomena I call "the wave" in this game when it comes to content that runs similar to seasons. The reason that people can't seem to come to an agreement on pugs being a viable option is due to the fact that there is a wave of dedicated people at the start of each patch that live and breath for this content. Get those people in a PUG and they will definitely clear fights because they are effectively not a PUG, but one big subgroup that works together like clockwork around the same point in time. They are the ones that rush for the gear and get in and out as soon as possible.

The actual PUG group is the non-seasonal long term players that don't really fall into one of these waves. These are the long running subs that do content and their own pace and eventually get to niche content like Savage mode, and these are the people that struggle with it when it comes to PUGs. Even if they get a Static this late in the season it really wont help as much because that core group that went with the initial wave already cleared and are optimizing to farm gear. Even if a few are willing to go back and help, the majority of the initial wave want the same thing everyone else does: Go get stuff from other events and such or farm out the gear in the content they have mastered.

Just leaving this here again since it pretty much answers my position on this. I can tell you people are not camping Ahm Arang if they tear out the savage from PF. They'd likely turn to crystal raiders or simply make PF groups under different content now that I think on it, since that is how they recruit normally. The only real way to solve the PUG problem is locking 8 players together into the run and not letting the group enter unless those same 8 players go in again. I'm kind of laughing at the thought of how that would turn out, but it would literally be the only way to stop people from trying to pug it.

Also, lets be strait with each other: Savage and PvP are probably the two worst performing sectors in FFXIV's community. They basically just slap a dye-able version of the normal mode armor in the savage mode as the reward when they should be doing something more like Eureka with the glow effects, largely because the development team doesn't want to spend too much time working on savage. PvP basically exists for Moogle Tome events and then dies except for when the PvP discord decides it's a good night to run something, and the 4 v 4 version of PvP is hell on wheels.

That, and I'm almost surely convinced that there is some kind of crafting mafia that waits for patch day just to exploit the heck out of day 1 savage raiders so they can try and by another large plot somewhere... somehow... when one actually opens...

[Tracewood]

The reality is, Savage is unbearable if you don't have a static, it also punishes people (taking loot away) if people who cleared want to go back to help those who are struggling. Without a static, yes it IS a waste of time especially for those who work long hours and/or have a family/don't want to spend up to half the day wiping to the same fight every day.

It gives the impression that Savage is NOT for those people.

Horizontal progression content would be such a nice alternative, low man content that rewards same item level gear. Think a savage dungeon, Deep Dungeon rules so no class is ever left out and once cleared you get ONE piece of max item level gear each week for that patch. That way the raiders won't get upset that the "filthy casuals" are catching up to them (lol). 24 man feels like such a letdown when you get gear that is the same item level as preupgraded tomes, four or more months after the raid tier starts from the previous patch.

People argue the justification, but coming from games with better endgame system I just can't see it.

[Colt47]

The reality is, Savage is unbearable if you don't have a static, it also punishes people (taking loot away) if people who cleared want to go back to help those who are struggling. Without a static, yes it IS a waste of time especially for those who work long hours and/or have a family/don't want to spend up to half the day wiping to the same fight every day.

It gives the impression that Savage is NOT for those people.

Horizontal progression content would be such a nice alternative, low man content that rewards same item level gear. Think a savage dungeon, Deep Dungeon rules so no class is ever left out and once cleared you get ONE piece of max item level gear each week for that patch. That way the raiders won't get upset that the "filthy casuals" are catching up to them (lol). 24 man feels like such a letdown when you get gear that is the same item level as preupgraded tomes, four or more months after the raid tier starts from the previous patch.

People argue the justification, but coming from games with better endgame system I just can't see it.

Okay, this is a bit of a bad argument to be making here. My problem with Savage is that they are being cheap with it and unintentionally encouraging people who would normally not even be interested in savage into doing it (like myself). They basically throw a non-dye-able version of the 8-man armor in the regular version and if anyone wants to paint it they have to go burn days in content with an 8/8 competence requirement. In fact, your post is basically proving my point in that you are someone who isn't able to do savage who is being influenced into doing it by an unintentional seeding of a lure.

Ultimate is savage done right. It's a trophy run mode that rewards those who complete it at the right gear level and the gear is 100% unique to the fight. Even if they are a unique coloration that no one can get of some relic item, they are super mega glowy trophy items that scream "he did it!"

On top of which Ultimate is timeless and not locked behind a gear wall. Someone can still do the older Ultimate and their level and gear scales to a preset level, so it opens up the fight to everyone who plays the game and not just those with time to grind out 3-4 savage dungeons every week, which is pretty brutal anyway.

[ForteNightshade]

The reality is, Savage is unbearable if you don't have a static, it also punishes people (taking loot away) if people who cleared want to go back to help those who are struggling. Without a static, yes it IS a waste of time especially for those who work long hours and/or have a family/don't want to spend up to half the day wiping to the same fight every day.

It gives the impression that Savage is NOT for those people.

Horizontal progression content would be such a nice alternative, low man content that rewards same item level gear. Think a savage dungeon, Deep Dungeon rules so no class is ever left out and once cleared you get ONE piece of max item level gear each week for that patch. That way the raiders won't get upset that the "filthy casuals" are catching up to them (lol). 24 man feels like such a letdown when you get gear that is the same item level as preupgraded tomes, four or more months after the raid tier starts from the previous patch.

People argue the justification, but coming from games with better endgame system I just can't see it.

Horizontal progression simply will not work with how FFXIV is structured. Adding more ways to obtain max level gear alongside Savage means players gear faster, thus have less reason to stay subscribed. The game doesn't have enough longevity for multiple avenues like that. Look no further than crafting gear. By making it upgrade-able via a simple turn in last expansion, prices dropped significantly. That only got worse now with how easily obtainable gear was—making crafting increasingly obsolete beyond the initial few weeks. Granted, bots are a big factor into the problem here but it can't be denied the increasing gear options stepped on another activity. The same would occur with Savage. Why bother pugging it when a Savage dungeon that is noticeably easier (and it always will be) offers the same thing? Even worse, the pants are BiS. Well, now Savage is completely worthless to you for that job.

FFXIV would need to completely overhaul its entire gearing system, stats and pretty much everything before the devs could consider horizontal progression. And that just isn't going to happen six years.

[EONX_]

Removing the ability to PF savage is one of the worst things you can do here. The problem with pugs is that there are absolutely 0, and I mean 0, standards of play established in this game. People are allowed to join content and not know anything about their job and often times don't get punished for it. Damage meters occasionally become toxic because there are players WATCHING people with 0 knowledge on their job completely throw the fight while understanding they can't do anything about it without risking being banned. SE needs to establish standards of play for savage level difficulty if we want to see any type of improvement in the pug raiding scene, this applies to EX content as well. The fact that 0 damage healers still exist in this game in SAVAGE CONTENT (or even EX content and lower) is a testament to why this is a problem and that it NEEDS to be addressed. I get this is a casual game but the players that have absolutely no interest in learning anything about their jobs past an extremely basic level (especially if they don't even learn the basics) should not be allowed to access Savage content without a full 8 man premade, period. Running into players that can't play their jobs at a basic level is extremely frustrating and really takes away from the experience, especially when those same players are toxic and shuffle blame towards others.

My point is pugging savage isn't necessarily the problem. If players at minimum could do average damage and could do mechanics semi-consistently, PF wouldn't be all that bad. Right now, you have players that do significantly less than average damage and can't do mechanics consistently at all. Removing the ability to pug savage with less than an 8 man premade only punishes players that don't have a consistent schedule and cannot commit to a raid group as a result, and doesn't fix anything.

[ForteNightshade]

Removing the ability to PF savage is one of the worst things you can do here. The problem with pugs is that there are absolutely 0, and I mean 0, standards of play established in this game. People are allowed to join content and not know anything about their job and often times don't get punished for it. Damage meters occasionally become toxic because there are players WATCHING people with 0 knowledge on their job completely throw the fight while understanding they can't do anything about it without risking being banned. SE needs to establish standards of play for savage level difficulty if we want to see any type of improvement in the pug raiding scene, this applies to EX content as well. The fact that 0 damage healers still exist in this game in SAVAGE CONTENT (or even EX content and lower) is a testament to why this is a problem and that it NEEDS to be addressed. I get this is a casual game but the players that have absolutely no interest in learning anything about their jobs past an extremely basic level (especially if they don't even learn the basics) should not be allowed to access Savage content without a full 8 man premade, period. Running into players that can't play their jobs at a basic level is extremely frustrating and really takes away from the experience, especially when those same players are toxic and shuffle blame towards others.

My point is pugging savage isn't necessarily the problem. If players at minimum could do average damage and could do mechanics semi-consistently, PF wouldn't be all that bad. Right now, you have players that do significantly less than average damage and can't do mechanics consistently at all. Removing the ability to pug savage with less than an 8 man premade only punishes players that don't have a consistent schedule and cannot commit to a raid group as a result, and doesn't fix anything.

This is why I maintain damage meters or ACT itself should be allowed in EX/Savage content with a simple check box on the PF options to denote it. That way parties are clearly marked, allowing players to decide if they want to join a PF where damage meters will be openly acknowledged and visible. I often see rebuttals to that argument being, "Well, then every PF will check that option!" Which sort of highlights the point, doesn't it? Expectations are much higher in Savage than a dungeon.

All that aside, it isn't as though the ToS rules still wouldn't apply. Calling someone a bunch of slurs would get you banned with or without damage meters. But in this scenario, telling a White Mage, "Hey, you really need to be doing more than 2k" in E6S wouldn't be labeled "toxic."

[Liam_Harper]

Agreed. If they don't want damage meters in casual content that's fine, but they really should be added to EX and Savage. Not just ACT either, but an official ingame parser so that Ps4 players aren't left behind. This is content where you need to know your class, but players who aren't even reaching a fraction their potential damage can be carried through Normal and walk straight into Savage PF's with zero chance of clearing and waste 7 other players time. It's not fair on the under-performing player either, they wipe all day or get kicked and have no idea why, because Enix has been doing everything possible to shield them from knowing their own performance and even trick them into thinking they're doing great. It's sort of cruel to leave Savage so open to inexperienced players without preparing them in the slightest.

I don't feel the ability to pug Savage is the issue, although I do wish it was more friendly on FC groups somehow and we weren't limited to statics for organized endgame play.

[Colt47]

On the other part of the fence I finally cleared E6S and E7S is way easier than E6S. Well, unless someone isn't good with teleports and portals. Made it to the donut bird adds after 20 minutes of attempts with no deaths.

I think what SE needs to do is get rid of the sequential lockout on the savage battles and just let people pick and choose which one to progress on first. The way some of the older WoW dungeons were set up there was a final boss and a bunch of smaller bosses. Even though you had to clear all the small bosses first before the final boss would show up, you could still pick the order in which to do the smaller ones. Flashing back to the Eden lockouts, there's basically no storyline reason why we need to do the first three of the four bosses in that particular order.

So, if SE wants to make things better in savage the first change would be to stop enforcing a particular kill order on the first three bosses. They should still require clearing all sub bosses to see Refulgence, or whatever, but that way people who get stuck in one place can try other fights. I'm betting if people had a choice, they'd be doing Ramuh and the Bird one first and leaving Furor as the last of the three.