Feeling punished for having alts...

[Centershock]

So, you realize I'm not the one making this thread about that, right? I'm not the one who keeps mentioning them. What I am saying is that this thread is laughable, given people are whining about how alts suck to play when they don't need to play one and there are much larger issues. I do play an alt, and would I say it was worth it? Not really. Alts are not mandatory or useful in FFXIV, unlike other MMOs, and that's fine.

While you're entitled to your own opinion about alts, calling it "laughable" and "whining" isn't really constructive to the topic at hand. If you don't feel that this thread is necessary, why don't you just say that and move along? You are clearly and intentionally invalidating our "alt concerns" because it's not a problem that you have because we find value in it differently than you do. It seems like what you are doing is more malicious than anything else. High horse. Please get off of it.

I, for one, believe that this game, while clearly alt unfriendly, should be just a bit more accommodating for us who do have alts. Perhaps have limited transferrability of items across all our characters. (i.e. be able to mail things to ourselves/alts, allow our alts to join the FC we're in/we created, etc.) I don't mind doing all the MSQ on alts again all that much when skip books (level and MSQ) exist. But small QoL changes would be nice.

[Videra]

While you're entitled to your own opinion about alts, calling it "laughable" and "whining" isn't really constructive to the topic at hand. If you don't feel that this thread is necessary, why don't you just say that and move along? You are clearly and intentionally invalidating our "alt concerns" because it's not a problem that you have because we find value in it differently than you do. It seems like what you are doing is more malicious than anything else. High horse. Please get off of it.

I, for one, believe that this game, while clearly alt unfriendly, should be just a bit more accommodating for us who do have alts. Perhaps have limited transferrability of items across all our characters. (i.e. be able to mail things to ourselves/alts, allow our alts to join the FC we're in/we created, etc.) I don't mind doing all the MSQ on alts again all that much when skip books (level and MSQ) exist. But small QoL changes would be nice.

I'll preface this: I was a grumpy bitch this morning, which - I'm not going to hide behind as an excuse, but just acknowledging where I was coming from at the time.

I do want to see alt Quality of Life improvements, I play an alt, but I really do feel like it's something that shouldn't be prioritized in the face of other desperately needed changes. Again - I'm not opposed to the concept, I'd welcome it with open arms, but the fact that we're getting less content, on the whole, makes me wary. Every single little QoL improvement will take from dev time that could be devoted to other things. And I really do worry about that prospect with how development has been spiralling downwards since Shadowbringers launch.

[Melichoir]

This makes no sense. The game was made with a lot of flaws. The game was designed to not let us change jobs unless we were in a sanctuary. The game was designed to not let us call our chocobos out while we were in queue. The game was designed to not have a minimum item level for leveling dungeons.

They changed those things.

Yes, it is inconvenient. That is why we're asking the dev team to change it. I don't want to play other mmos, I'm asking for a change to the one MMO that I play. I pay for extra characters, I would like more features for the things that I pay for. I don't think we're being unreasonable. If alts were not meant to be a feature then they wouldn't be in the game.

But keep on with your strawmans. I don't mind if people have a valid reasoning to protest the request of a feature, but just saying you don't want it, just because, is not valid.

Either way you're keeping the thread on the front page so hopefully that will get us more attention.

Frankly saying they dont want it cause they feel itll change the core aspect of the game is just as valid as you saying you want it cause its QoL for you.

You dont have to agree with their point and can debate the aspects of it, but dont overly simplify their point to put yours in a better light.


This all being said, why is it that people want this stuff extended to alts? What is the point of having an alt currently? There was a fair argument for MSQ reasons, but thats gone cause NG+ is rectifying that issue. The cross world thing also helps solve some of this issue with having friends on different servers. It's not perfect but its an improvement. I havent personally seen a huge demand to be able to 're-level' everything you own as a good reason for alts, though Im sure theres a handful of people who would want that.

Now Im gonna be a bit cherry picking here to help highlight something:

I, for one, believe that this game, while clearly alt unfriendly, should be just a bit more accommodating for us who do have alts. Perhaps have limited transferrability of items across all our characters. (i.e. be able to mail things to ourselves/alts, allow our alts to join the FC we're in/we created, etc.)

This is why they dont encourage alts and why the consideration of the game design is important. They want you to rent extra retainers beyond 2 per character. If you could mail alts items or money, you could use your extra dollar or two sub to get yourself 14 extra retainers. This is also why they dont want you to easily invite yourself to an alts FC, because it makes it easier to abuse the FC system for more storage space among other things (like housing plots - which is also a s***-show and is something that does need to be addressed but thats a whole other topic). Having alts in this capacity and streamlining alts to function exactly like MMOs like WoW does would.

This game and many of its mechanics are designed specifically around a "one character" model. A lot of the auxillary services like more retainers is designed around this aspect. In WoW, having multiple alts made sense from that games design perspective because each character you made was locked to one single job. Youd have to reroll to play any new class. The ability to mail yourself stuff was probably a semi workaround for players that Blizzard went with so that if you started a new character it didnt feel as horrible starting from scratch. And part of the result of that were literal bank alts - alts who had 0 purpose other than have more bank space.

Now that model doesnt work for FFXIV because they designed the game to operate where you need only 1 character.

So when people say "Doing stuff that caters to alts is not in the games design", theyre not wrong. The game isnt really designed for alts. It was designed for a single character, but gave players the option to have alts IF they wanted to do something like replay the MSQ.

I guess the question I want to know is why do people want alts outside of reasons that would exploit or bypass mogstation or account features (such as more inventory space or replaying the MSQ)?

[Kytrin]

I guess the question I want to know is why do people want alts outside of reasons that would exploit or bypass mogstation or account features (such as more inventory space or replaying the MSQ)?

Hon, this question has been answered ad nauseam by more than one person in this very thread. Myself included. Seriously. It's starting to feel like we're shouting into the void at this point. For details, I highly recommend going back to read some of those entries. However, in summary...

HAVING ALTS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EXPLOITS, RAIDING, INVENTORY, OR ANY OTHER SO CALLED 'CHEAT' FOR MOST PEOPLE.

It really doesn't.

I have two characters. Both characters have 9 retainers (I am not afraid to pay for more inventory to keep myself organized). I could not care LESS about two more free retainers on alts. I could care less about raiding multiple times a week. I don't care about the blasted mogstation either. I simply buy what I want for BOTH characters if I like it enough to spend the money twice. I don't even care specifically about MSQ now that I can new game+.

My entire reason for having two characters is because I had an old, retired, main I decided to reinvent into a new character with a new name and a new backstory. Sonja is a completely different person from K'rina, and I enjoy the difference in their personalities as I play through the game. That's it. That's the reason. And I see no reason why I should have to spend a fortune in fantasia and name changes because I want to play something other than my kitty.

By that same token, K'rina IS my main character. She's wealthier and further along with things than Sonja is. Being able to craft things on K'rina to send to Sonja without having to beg an FC mate for help or commandeer the FC chest for a while, is not an unreasonable request, and honestly I don't get why you and a lot of other people are so against it.

Unless you think we're all cheaters and exploiters who should have our accounts banned because we have the gall to pay for more character slots, use them, and then ask that it be a little less of a pain to do so? Because that's the impression I'm getting from all this outrage.

[Jojoya]

WoW is a good argument for why most of these alt QoL changes should never be implemented. They didn't increase overall player satisfaction with the game. If anything, they decreased it.

Those QoL changes led to players getting bored with the game faster because there was no reason to repeat content when every character got the reward once one character earned it.

The vast majority of rewards in this game are easy enough to obtain through normal game play. Just play the game through on the alt to earn the reward instead of expecting to get it automatically because another character has it.

HAVING ALTS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EXPLOITS, RAIDING, INVENTORY, OR ANY OTHER SO CALLED 'CHEAT' FOR MOST PEOPLE.

It only takes the uncaring few to abuse a system for restrictions to end up placed on everyone.

Why do you think the world is effectively on lockdown right now? It's because some people only care about what they want and what's convenient for them. They don't care about the greater consequences and so everyone gets punished so those few can't make things even worse.

By that same token, K'rina IS my main character. She's wealthier and further along with things than Sonja is. Being able to craft things on K'rina to send to Sonja without having to beg an FC mate for help or commandeer the FC chest for a while, is not an unreasonable request, and honestly I don't get why you and a lot of other people are so against it.

If Sonja and K'rina are separate people, then Sonja shouldn't be entitled to anything K'rina has any more than I'm entitled to what Donald Trump or Kim Kardashian have.

There's nothing stopping you from crafting items on K'rina, listing them on the Marketboard then switching to Sonja to buy them much as someone will buy things from another in real iife. That's how I used to do it before my alts ended up in the same FC.

The point that should be made with respect to the friend list/mail restriction is that it has done nothing to curb players intent on exploiting storage restrictions via alts. There's the marketboard as I mentioned above. There's using personal FCs with the FC chest that allows far more convenient inventory sharing than the mail does.

Players will always find ways to exploit storage limitations when there is any method of transferring items that does not require a trade window with both characters present.

SE might as well allow alts on the same account to be on the friends list because it won't make the situation any worse than it already is. The serious exploiters will continue to use personal FCs because FCs offer more than just storage. Most players won't be affected at all because they usually want the additional storage for glamour and housing items, and those can't be mailed once they bind to a character.

[Kytrin]

If Sonja and K'rina are separate people, then Sonja shouldn't be entitled to anything K'rina has any more than I'm entitled to what Donald Trump or Kim Kardashian have.

There's nothing stopping you from crafting items on K'rina, listing them on the Marketboard then switching to Sonja to buy them much as someone will buy things from another in real iife. That's how I used to do it before my alts ended up in the same FC.

Seriously? That's your argument and solution? I hate to break it to you hon, but your solution doesn't work. I have tried. I cannot list something on K'rina for Sonja to buy. Amazingly, I get this fun little error that says I can't purchase something I myself listed and I'm S.O.L.

And entitled? Wtf? This isn't you demanding I give you stuff because you don't have it and I do. This is me deciding that I have the mats handy to create a set of gear Sonja needs on K'rina, crafting it, and sending it to her without wasting more gil or time re-acquiring the mats. That is NOT the same thing. And if you want to try and use an in-world/rp reason... they're in the same FC and K'rina has a history of doing that for FC mates regardless.

No. Don't give me that about entitled and selling stuff to yourself.

And I have said REPEATEDLY now that the ability to mail stuff to yourself will not make any difference. You can already get stuff to alts by going around your elbow to get to your thumb. The ability to get directly to your thumb will not change any of the so called 'cheating hacks' people are already pulling. So don't give me that excuse either.

[Videra]

SNIP

To be honest, being able to mail things to your alts would be pretty nice. And you know what, hell with my development resources argument - they made Fellowships and then abandoned them. Let us just send stuff around to our alts.

[Jojoya]

Seriously? That's your argument and solution? I hate to break it to you hon, but your solution doesn't work. I have tried. I cannot list something on K'rina for Sonja to buy. Amazingly, I get this fun little error that says I can't purchase something I myself listed and I'm S.O.L..

Then something is going wrong for you. I just tested it with 2 of my alts. Listed 20 Steel Ingots on a retainer of my Hyur alt and then bought them with my Viera alt. No problems doing it at all.

Now if you listed the items on one of K'rina's retainers then tried to buy it with K'rina, it will give you that error message. I do that by accident sometimes on my Roe alt that runs our FC workshop since I use her retainers to sell items for the FC, and don't always remember I had ore up for sale that I need for another project.

I wasn't trying to call you entitled. I was giving an example. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

If you read to the bottom of my post, you would note that I agree that giving players the ability to mail items between alts wouldn't have any significant impact on the game since players already have a better way to get around it in the form of the FC chest.

If you're going to be easily offended by other people expressing an opposing viewpoint, you're better off staying away from forums that are meant for discussion and debate.

No one is saying asking for improvements is bad. What I am suggesting is the consideration of what they want would also entail and isnt inline with the current structure of the game. This isnt WoW, and I dont mean that flippantly. How WoW is structured as a game is different than how FFXIV is from a PC standpoint, and the differences means that just because it works on WoW doesnt mean it would work here without issue or abuse.

WoW's mail system is already abused far more as additional storage than FFXIV would be. WoW allows 12 attachments per letter with no limit on the number of letters that can be sent to a character, though you can only view the most current 50 and mail expires after 30 days. You could also have up to 12 characters per world in WoW (not sure if they increased the limit after I stopped playing). It was a very common practice for players to use the mail system in that way. Trying to set up a personal guild bank was very expensive for the normal player.

The limit of 20 letters with up to 5 attachments here would make the mail far less practical as an additional storage and transfer system. Alts are already being created and used for additional storage because there are already ways to transfer items. Allowing players to mail items between their alts won't start something that isn't already happening.

[Melichoir]

Hon, this question has been answered ad nauseam by more than one person in this very thread. Myself included. Seriously. It's starting to feel like we're shouting into the void at this point. For details, I highly recommend going back to read some of those entries.

As of writing this, this thread is 26 pages long. Im not gonna read every post. That make me a bit lazy? Yeah, a bit. But if its an easy answer thats been answered ad nauseum, then put it in 2 sentences. If its so easy and solid a reasoning, I wont have much else to say.

HAVING ALTS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EXPLOITS, RAIDING, INVENTORY, OR ANY OTHER SO CALLED 'CHEAT' FOR MOST PEOPLE.

It really doesn't.

In the game as it is currently designed, you arent exploiting anything for the most part. However, my point was addressing "QoL" changes with CenterShock being the example - Changes which would bypass things like additional retainer services and how the game is designed around 1 PC. To implement these "QoL" features would make it ripe for exploit because frankly that is exactly what you see in other MMOs and you would see that here UNLESS they also redesigned a lot of how these features so you can have QoL changes as mentioned. My personal suspicions is that while a few people may have more honest reasons why they want said changes, the reality is that it would quickly become the norm to pay 15, make bank alts, and mail them all the overflow instead of buying retainers.

I have two characters. Both characters have 9 retainers (I am not afraid to pay for more inventory to keep myself organized). I could not care LESS about two more free retainers on alts. I could care less about raiding multiple times a week. I don't care about the blasted mogstation either. I simply buy what I want for BOTH characters if I like it enough to spend the money twice. I don't even care specifically about MSQ now that I can new game+.

My entire reason for having two characters is because I had an old, retired, main I decided to reinvent into a new character with a new name and a new backstory. Sonja is a completely different person from K'rina, and I enjoy the difference in their personalities as I play through the game. That's it. That's the reason. And I see no reason why I should have to spend a fortune in fantasia and name changes because I want to play something other than my kitty.

By that same token, K'rina IS my main character. She's wealthier and further along with things than Sonja is. Being able to craft things on K'rina to send to Sonja without having to beg an FC mate for help or commandeer the FC chest for a while, is not an unreasonable request, and honestly I don't get why you and a lot of other people are so against it.

Congrats on starting a new toon for RP reasons. But Ill bet the farm that youre a minority of a minority in this regards. You have an RP head canon for an alt that is different from your main. Even among RPers, this isnt that common a thing, and RPers dont make up the majority of the player base. Hell, we all have head canons, but most people dont want to start from scratch just to create a new head canon character that is only different in their own head and personal circle of friends.

That being said, again, the game is designed around the 1 PC system. They want you to buy name changes and fantasias. They want you to use the Mogstation services. That is part of their profit motive and the game is designed with that in mind. They give you the option to keep your progress and redesign if you want - OR you can buy the 15 a month sub and get alts where you can make the new "head canon". But the trade for that is you start from scratch. Which, by the sounds of your reasoning, is exactly what you personally want, so Im not sure what your investment in QoL changes is exactly.

Unless you think we're all cheaters and exploiters who should have our accounts banned because we have the gall to pay for more character slots, use them, and then ask that it be a little less of a pain to do so? Because that's the impression I'm getting from all this outrage.

Seems like youre taking this as a personal attack. Take a breather bud. Im not saying youre a cheater and need to be banned. My point is that if you design a system to be easily exploited in x fashion, it will be done that way by the player base at large in short time. Simply asking "Oh dont make alt characters that are just for storage" isnt effective, and good luck trying to prove people arent using alts simply for bank storage and not for "RP reasons" or "Leveling an alt". At least with the current design set up, it heavily discourages this aspect (capping on transferable money, using intermediaries for trading, not being able to use a common bank storage as a transfer point easily.) Not that they have eliminated it, just mitigated against it to make it not an easy to do thing.

Otherwise, some changes like being able to mail to alts, would result in bank alts and bypassing extra storage options they want you to buy. You see this in wow, you see this in other games, youll see it here too if some changes are made. Beyond that, the only reason Im seeing that you create alts for is for RP reasons, and even then, Im not sure what youre advocating for in regards to QoL changes that would justify making it more alt friendly that wouldnt open a can o worms and bypass mog station account features.

[Kytrin]

SNIP

Yeah okay, I'm clearly wasting my time, breath, and sanity here. I've tried explaining it over and over again, but it's like I'm shouting into the void. The ability to mail anything to my alt won't break things any worse than they already are, buuuuuuuuut it's obviously useless trying to explain that, so whatever. I'm out. Enjoy your victory. I'll let others take up the debate.