What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[Vyrerus]

Snip

I'm not sure how long you've played, possibly longer than me, possibly not, but in ARR originally, the tank stance offered no extra enmity, and it was only present on skills and spells themselves. The tank I took up back then was Warrior. To hold hate in AOE, you had to have Maim + Berserk, and then you had to go through each monster with your enmity combo as fast as you could, or you were going to lose something. When they added enmity to stance and to overpower, it got better, easier, but depending on gear differences and whether or not your DPS were AOEing like normal or not, then it was still possible to lose agro.

As far as Heavensward goes, again, it was only a "joke" for Warrior, and only because Butcher's Block combo was higher potency than the other two combos while still giving a Wrath stack. Ninjas weren't in every comp, and not every Ninja was on the ball with Smokebomb and Shadewalker. Plus, Smokebomb usually went to the WHM, because AOE healing created such a high amount of enmity that it had to be curbed, particularly without a WAR tank.

[SamRF]

but in ARR originally, the tank stance offered no extra enmity, .

Unless I'm having crazy mandella effect, I'm pretty sure Paladin Shield Oath increased enmity gain.

edit: Found a PLD guide from 2014, it did increase enmity, but also lowered damage by 30%, I'm guessing you're assuming that evens it out? I don't know for sure but I recall pretty well that generating enmity became easier when you unlocked Shield Oath, Brayflox being one of the most difficult to hold aggro since it was the last dungeon before you'd unlock Shield Oath.

[Vyrerus]

Unless I'm having crazy mandella effect, I'm pretty sure Paladin Shield Oath increased enmity gain.

edit: Found a PLD guide from 2014, it did increase enmity, but also lowered damage by 30%, I'm guessing you're assuming that evens it out? I don't know for sure but I recall pretty well that generating enmity became easier when you unlocked Shield Oath, Brayflox being one of the most difficult to hold aggro since it was the last dungeon before you'd unlock Shield Oath.

It had a lower enmity effect until 2.1, if it had one at all. I can't say for certain, because I did not play PLD until after 2.1.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not sure how long you've played, possibly longer than me, possibly not, but in ARR originally, the tank stance offered no extra enmity.

It has always offered additional enmity. Its modifier was just significantly lower, as if more to compensate for the damage loss (via modifier and the loss of Sword Oath) inflicted rather than being an "enmity stance" per se, such that wielding a dagger in Sword Oath could quite possibly out-enmity Shield Oath in single-target (since, back then, Sword Oath's bonus potency didn't scale with weapon delay), while they were otherwise relatively neutral. This was quickly buffed.

[Vyrerus]

It has always offered additional enmity. Its modifier was just significantly lower, as if more to compensate for the damage loss (via modifier and the loss of Sword Oath) inflicted rather than being an "enmity stance" per se, such that wielding a dagger in Sword Oath could quite possibly out-enmity Shield Oath in single-target (since, back then, Sword Oath's bonus potency didn't scale with weapon delay), while they were otherwise relatively neutral. This was quickly buffed.

Yeah, Shield Oath did, but not Defiance.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, Shield Oath did, but not Defiance.

I could have sworn it had a minor one, too. It most definitely got one before the 2.1 rework, as you'd still start each trash pull in Defiance (yes, even without Unchained), grab up some heals and a Regen or shield while your 4/5 or 5/5 Wrath stacks were raising healing taken, Inner Beast to top off, and then drop Defiance for further damage during Bloodbath. Admittedly, my Warrior was already at 50 going into ARR, whereas I spent the MSQ leveling my PLD (starting at 35 or so, iirc), so the latter is fresher in my mind, but I'd done enough no-heal WP/AK runs as Warrior prior to the 2.1 changes (marginal dungeon nerfs for notable raid buffs) to remember that much.

That said, given how much larger Skull Sunder and Butcher Block's potencies AND enmity modifiers were, and that Overpower had a modifier that could at least scale, AND that it didn't have the further penalty of just not being in Sword Oath, it'd make sense if Defiance's modifier was noticeably lower than Shield Oath's.

[Vyrerus]

I could have sworn it had a minor one, too. It most definitely got one before the 2.1 rework, as you'd still start each trash pull in Defiance (yes, even without Unchained), grab up some heals and a Regen or shield while your 4/5 or 5/5 Wrath stacks were raising healing taken, Inner Beast to top off, and then drop Defiance for further damage during Bloodbath. Admittedly, my Warrior was already at 50 going into ARR, whereas I spent the MSQ leveling my PLD (starting at 35 or so, iirc), so the latter is fresher in my mind, but I'd done enough no-heal WP/AK runs as Warrior prior to the 2.1 changes (marginal dungeon nerfs for notable raid buffs) to remember that much.

That said, given how much larger Skull Sunder and Butcher Block's potencies AND enmity modifiers were, and that Overpower had a modifier that could at least scale, AND that it didn't have the further penalty of just not being in Sword Oath, it'd make sense if Defiance's modifier was noticeably lower than Shield Oath's.

Nah, it just didn't have one. WAR just had bigger hits and more damage going out than PLD on weaponskills. The Maim buff was +20%, Berserk +50%, and then you had the 20% crit rate increase from Internal Release. Crits got that 1.1x enmity modifier, and then you could spam Flash when you went Pacified. Original Defiance was -25% damage dealt for +25% HP each Wrath stack adding 5% healing received, and 2% crit rate, but I can't remember if that came later. I know it was changed to 2% parry in HW with the crit going to Deliverance.

I do also remember using Flash first for pick up a lot, because Overpower had that weird animation delay until they made it snappy after 2.1 sometime.

[Shurrikhan]

Original Defiance was -25% damage dealt for +25% HP each Wrath stack adding 5% healing received, and 2% crit rate, but I can't remember if that came later.

Crit and healing were both there from the start, I think? And it was up to +25% maximum HP and healing received, which the change just made flat at 4 stacks, despite leaving the penalty at 5 stacks.

I just, again, am like... 80% sure there was an enmity modifier there as well, if only attached to the Wrath stacks just as max HP and healing taken was (in the style of 1.x Rampage and Berserk)?

I do also remember using Flash first for pick up a lot, because Overpower had that weird animation delay until they made it snappy after 2.1 sometime.

It did indeed. There was a LOT more swish (and swirl) before its flick when it still followed the 1.x animation. Plus, what else were we going to use MP on, especially when we had no Bard for Army's Paeon?

[ReiMakoto]

I'm not sure how long you've played, possibly longer than me, possibly not, but in ARR originally, the tank stance offered no extra enmity, and it was only present on skills and spells themselves. The tank I took up back then was Warrior. To hold hate in AOE, you had to have Maim + Berserk, and then you had to go through each monster with your enmity combo as fast as you could, or you were going to lose something. When they added enmity to stance and to overpower, it got better, easier, but depending on gear differences and whether or not your DPS were AOEing like normal or not, then it was still possible to lose agro.

As far as Heavensward goes, again, it was only a "joke" for Warrior, and only because Butcher's Block combo was higher potency than the other two combos while still giving a Wrath stack. Ninjas weren't in every comp, and not every Ninja was on the ball with Smokebomb and Shadewalker. Plus, Smokebomb usually went to the WHM, because AOE healing created such a high amount of enmity that it had to be curbed, particularly without a WAR tank.

I wasnt saying it was a joke for only warrior in HW. If you just did 2 aggro combos at the start of the fight then switch out of stance on any tank you could pretty comfortably hold aggro in pug groups, and in organised groups it was even easier.

I was around from mid arr and holding aggro wasnt a challenge then. I dont remember anyone telling me there wasnt an aggro mod initially on overpower, and id have to see some patch notes or something, but from when i was playing aggro holding in single target was easily done by just comboing, and aoe aggro was just spam your aoe aggro move, nothing interesting about it.