Results of a reddit job satisfaction poll

[Sylve]

My understanding that as it currently stands, out side of specific mechanics, healers heal through oGCDs. They shouldve given healers a DPS rotation then, or adjusted healing to be GCD based with oGCD procs for DPS. But Im not a healer main so I dont even know which would be better or funner.

Tanks need to be brought up to GNB though kit wise. Also, they need to bring back threat management.

Two Healers together in well coordinated, zero mistake perfect runs heal through oGCD rotations. Important distinction.

And no, Healers do not "need" a DPS rotation.
Tanks and DPS need only watch out for mechanics while doing their rotations. Healers need to monitor the party status while also watching for mechanics and you want to add full blown DPS rotations into that?
If you want to play a job that does damage and sometimes heals, Theres a job called Red Mage that sounds right up your alley.

What Healers need is for Damage to not compete with Healing. Take Glare/Broil/Malefic off the GCD with a 1~2 second cooldown (AoEs would trigger that cooldown to prevent them being used as DPS GCD fillers).
Fill empty GCDs with Cures. 2x Cure is more healing and less MP than a single Cure II.

Weave DPS between Healing.
Only when Damage does not compete with Healing would it make sense to give Healers more DPS abilities.

As far as Enmity management goes, i remember levelling a lot of DPS Jobs through Stormblood and the prevailing attitude was "Its your fault you took Enmity from the Tank". Even when Lucid AND Diversion were on cooldown.
If they brought back Enmity management for Tanks, they'd need management tools on DPS and then we'd be right back where we started. Or worse, Back in ARR days with geared DPS ripping Enmity from newer Tanks with the only management option being to stop hitting the thing.

[SpeckledBurd]

As for MONK, I was not a fan of how monk was at the end of SB because it felt clunky. This ShB version I actually enjoy more than the "Use Tornado kick, stance dance a bunch with shoulder tackle to get GL stacks rapidly back," etc etc just felt overly clunky and stupid to play. The version we got now is a bit more satisfying if you manage to do the opener and subsequent play right, but it is also a bit more straight to the point. Once you understand your rotation, there isnt too much thinking involved unless your fight interrupts the groove you got into.


Yeah monk could use some clean up cause a few of its better skills are very niche, and DRK needs to either be reverted or overhauled yet again. The funny thing about DRK was that a friend of mine was joking around a bit and told me when ShB was announced "Oh S***! DRK is the poster child class for the xpac! Are you ready for it to be kinda garbage!". Yeah feels like whatever class they make the 'class' of the xpac, its gonna be crap or mediocre at best.

Right now the problem with Monk is that the devs basically didn't fix any of the problems people had with it in Stormblood, the ineffective way they've adjusted it's skills between each expansion, and the way they've repeated mistakes after claiming to have taken our feedback. To quote myself from another thread.

To make Monk players happy at this point I'd tentatively say that they need to outright replace Fists of Earth, Wind and Fire plus the two traits attached to them, and they need to either revise or replace Dragon Kick/Leaden Bootshine, Tornado Kick, Riddle of Earth, Brotherhood, Anatman, Six Sided Star, and Deep Meditation 1 and 2. That's 9 skills currently in the kit that need reworking and nearly every post ARR trait which basically encompasses everything to do with how its gauge works, how it builds resources, and how it spends that resource. That also isn't even touching on returning skills to it's kit that it would benefit from such as Touch of Death/Fracture which had significantly more utility on Monk than just being DoTs.

You wouldn't be exaggerating if you were to say that people have issues with every skill Monk gets beyond level 58. You'd actually be underselling the problems players have with the job.

Because everyone else had a more efficient way of handling it. Diversion had no cost associated with its usage whereas tank stance did; a 25% penalty to your damage. It wasn't simply a tank loss but a whole party loss. Fun fact, the DPS loss in Stormblood was so high for tanks, it was actually a party wide gain if Monks used Purification. Let that sink in for a moment. It was a party gain for a DPS to give up one of their more potent abilities than having the tank go into tank stance and do a combo or two, Warrior with Unchained notwithstanding.

I'd call that a failure of Monk design more than tank design. Monk was the only job in Stormblood that had to dump a full gauge of resource to use their aggro cut. Every job other than Samurai could use their aggro cut at will, and often it happened naturally as a part of their own rotation. Meanwhile Samurai only had to use a Third Eye proc (but no Kenki) rather than losing a Midare Setsugekka or a Guren or really anything comparable to losing a Forbidden Chakra.

[Sylve]

You wouldn't be exaggerating if you were to say that people have issues with every skill Monk gets beyond level 58. You'd actually be underselling the problems players have with the job.

As a former Monk main, I agree with this almost wholeheartedly. I think Riddle of Fire and Earth are fine for what they do.

All i would change would be Riddle of Wind and to add a new Form after using Demolish.
That form would be used on Six Sided Star, which would grant Riddle of Wind, allowing the use of Tornado Kick.
Tornado Kick itself would use the same form as Six Sided Star. Essentially giving us a new alternating fourth combo similar to how we alternate Bootshine and Dragon Kick.

That change alone would make me fall in love with Monk again.

[ReiMakoto]

Two Healers together in well coordinated, zero mistake perfect runs heal through oGCD rotations. Important distinction.

And no, Healers do not "need" a DPS rotation.
Tanks and DPS need only watch out for mechanics while doing their rotations. Healers need to monitor the party status while also watching for mechanics and you want to add full blown DPS rotations into that?
If you want to play a job that does damage and sometimes heals, Theres a job called Red Mage that sounds right up your alley.

What Healers need is for Damage to not compete with Healing. Take Glare/Broil/Malefic off the GCD with a 1~2 second cooldown (AoEs would trigger that cooldown to prevent them being used as DPS GCD fillers).
Fill empty GCDs with Cures. 2x Cure is more healing and less MP than a single Cure II.

Weave DPS between Healing.
Only when Damage does not compete with Healing would it make sense to give Healers more DPS abilities.

As far as Enmity management goes, i remember levelling a lot of DPS Jobs through Stormblood and the prevailing attitude was "Its your fault you took Enmity from the Tank". Even when Lucid AND Diversion were on cooldown.
If they brought back Enmity management for Tanks, they'd need management tools on DPS and then we'd be right back where we started. Or worse, Back in ARR days with geared DPS ripping Enmity from newer Tanks with the only management option being to stop hitting the thing.

This is a bizzare take to me, damage would have to be increased across the board to make those cures necessary, plus the main draw of healing for myself and friends in this game is adapting around a fight to not need healing gcds, at a fundamental level it is a well designed system, rewarding players for their mastery of a fight to need as little gcd healing as possible, where it falls down currently is not enough to do once you have mastered where to put your healing. As it stands Healing and Damage arn't in that rough of a competetion to the point where there is hardly a case where you'd have to use back to back more than 3 or 4 healing gcds, having a better dps rotation on a healer where their "combos" have 15 seconds before they are broken like with damage dealers wouldn't be too tragically interrupted by dealing damage unless you misplanned

[Sylve]

This is a bizzare take to me

Trust me when i say this, But your reply here was far more bizarre than mine lol.

Let me wrap my head around this.
The thing that draws you to healing ... Is spending as little time as possible actually healing?

Then why are you a healer? If fight DPS optimization is whats fun for you, playing any other Role would be just as fulfilling, if not more due to the complexities in an actual DPS' rotations and positional/uptime requirements.

I said in this thread earlier, and i'll say it again. Healing as a role is at its most engaging when shit is hitting the fan. When everyone is getting smashed and I'm using my entire toolkit to make sure everyone stays on their feet.
Raid damage needs to be more sporadic. In the scenario i described, GCD filler is Cure, taking care of any small hits (Like autos etc) while you weave DPS between your GCDs. Quite literally the exact opposite method we have now, which is to refuse to GCD heal in favor of DPS.

Basically:
-More sporadic damage, not scripted.
-DPS spells moved oGCD
-Addition of new oGCD DPS spells (Stone -> Glare -> Banish weaved between Cures, for example)

We need to remove the competition between Healing and DPS with the regards to the GCD, not make it worse by turning Healers into crappier DPS jobs with healing cooldowns.

[ReiMakoto]

Trust me when i say this, But your reply here was far more bizarre than mine lol.

Let me wrap my head around this.
The thing that draws you to healing ... Is spending as little time as possible actually healing?

Then why are you a healer? If fight DPS optimization is whats fun for you, playing any other Role would be just as fulfilling, if not more due to the complexities in an actual DPS' rotations and positional/uptime requirements.

I said in this thread earlier, and i'll say it again. Healing as a role is at its most engaging when shit is hitting the fan. When everyone is getting smashed and I'm using my entire toolkit to make sure everyone stays on their feet.
Raid damage needs to be more sporadic. In the scenario i described, GCD filler is Cure, taking care of any small hits (Like autos etc) while you weave DPS between your GCDs. Quite literally the exact opposite method we have now, which is to refuse to GCD heal in favor of DPS.

Basically:
-More sporadic damage, not scripted.
-DPS spells moved oGCD
-Addition of new oGCD DPS spells (Stone -> Glare -> Banish weaved between Cures, for example)

We need to remove the competition between Healing and DPS with the regards to the GCD, not make it worse by turning Healers into crappier DPS jobs with healing cooldowns.

Optimising damage on a healer/tank is just more fun imo, its a more noticable skill ceiling to be able to heal less and still deal high damage and its what drew me to the role to begin with back in heavenswards when picked up SCH as my max level healer. Its a real sense of power being able to deal nearly half the damage of a dps and keep everyone alive, and is also rewarding to pre plan your healing rotation and execute it perfectly, again the scripted nature drew me in more than turned me away. damage spells being on the OGCD would make dpsing as a healer way clunkier and take away from the risk/reward of pre-planning your healing. I don't raid on healer mind you, but my static healers likely wouldnt be as into it if the damaging aspect was tuned down.

[Crushnight]

Two Healers together in well coordinated, zero mistake perfect runs heal through oGCD rotations. Important distinction.

And no, Healers do not "need" a DPS rotation.
Tanks and DPS need only watch out for mechanics while doing their rotations. Healers need to monitor the party status while also watching for mechanics and you want to add full blown DPS rotations into that?
If you want to play a job that does damage and sometimes heals, Theres a job called Red Mage that sounds right up your alley.

What Healers need is for Damage to not compete with Healing. Take Glare/Broil/Malefic off the GCD with a 1~2 second cooldown (AoEs would trigger that cooldown to prevent them being used as DPS GCD fillers).
Fill empty GCDs with Cures. 2x Cure is more healing and less MP than a single Cure II.

Weave DPS between Healing.
Only when Damage does not compete with Healing would it make sense to give Healers more DPS abilities.

As far as Enmity management goes, i remember levelling a lot of DPS Jobs through Stormblood and the prevailing attitude was "Its your fault you took Enmity from the Tank". Even when Lucid AND Diversion were on cooldown.
If they brought back Enmity management for Tanks, they'd need management tools on DPS and then we'd be right back where we started. Or worse, Back in ARR days with geared DPS ripping Enmity from newer Tanks with the only management option being to stop hitting the thing.

This would create a whole new set of problems in healers.

Optimization would be trying to reduce over healing as much as possible such a change would cause massive spike in overhealing on all healers because trying to optimise will still try hit as much dps as possible however it is achieved this will be unsatisfying to a good few optimisers seeing such a high amount of wasteful healing especially because it will be mandatory wastefulness.

8 man bosses will have to have 1 of 2 traits, hit mt so hard with every auto to componsate 2 healers healing them every gcd or both tanks are hit continously ala Chardanook/Shinyru/Shiva-Dragonform. Both would cause strain on the healers if 1 of them dies 1 more so than 2. Dungeon bosses would have to hit tank harder too.

[dinnertime]

Personally I'd like to see healers have a diverse DPS kit in both GCDs and oGCDs along with their healing kit. Their DPS kit doesn't even need to be a full blown combo, but just something to make DPSing less monotonous.

As a healer, you decide what to do depending on the situation. If people are taking serious amounts of damage, you heal. If everyone is fine, you do damage. If it's possible, you could heal while also DPSing.

Right now I think healers rely mostly on instant and ogcd heals. This wouldn't be such an issue until you get to a point where gcd healing becomes redundant because ogcd heals are so powerful while being not so limited of a resource, which would mean the only other worthwhile thing you can do is doing damage, when doing damage is the most boring part of being a healer right now.

To be fair, fight encounters also factor on the engagement of healing in general. I still think a lot of fights don't exactly give enough to challenge healers on their current healing kits.

I just miss old Scholar. It had a DPS kit that blended pretty well with its healing kit. I also miss Aero III on White Mage because it spiced up the AoEs just a little.

[Crushnight]

This would create a whole new set of problems in healers.

Optimization would be trying to reduce over healing as much as possible such a change would cause massive spike in overhealing on all healers because trying to optimise will still try hit as much dps as possible however it is achieved this will be unsatisfying to a good few optimisers seeing such a high amount of wasteful healing especially because it will be mandatory wastefulness.

8 man bosses will have to have 1 of 2 traits, hit mt so hard with every auto to componsate 2 healers healing them every gcd or both tanks are hit continously ala Chardanook/Shinyru/Shiva-Dragonform. Both would cause strain on the healers if 1 of them dies 1 more so than 2. Dungeon bosses would have to hit tank harder too.

To add,

Those changes would also remove a lot of decision making on healers, do I heal or dps would be changed to do I heal + dps or just heal and lose free damage because reasons, this ofc would make the pure healer crowd even worse in the eyes of the community because there would be nothing nadda zip that could justify no damage not even nerves at that point since you just made it free weaves.

Lastly just go out into the overworld hit a lv 79/80 mob and do this cure, Dia, cure, glare, cure, glare, cure, glare or variation for a healer you have leveled, that would be your proposed gameplay from level 1 to 80 including solo instances, or anything else solo.

[Melichoir]

Two Healers together in well coordinated, zero mistake perfect runs heal through oGCD rotations. Important distinction.

And no, Healers do not "need" a DPS rotation.
Tanks and DPS need only watch out for mechanics while doing their rotations. Healers need to monitor the party status while also watching for mechanics and you want to add full blown DPS rotations into that?
If you want to play a job that does damage and sometimes heals, Theres a job called Red Mage that sounds right up your alley.

My point of reference is from people who consistently play savage content, and either have cleared all the current tiers (1-8) or cleared most nad progging e8. The general consensus among htem was that they OGCD heal predominately and just spam damage spells in the mean time. Their complaint is "Healing is boring cause all I do is spam x until I need to heal or prep for a buster".

Now Im sure there's more nuance, and when I suggest a DPS rotation, I dont mean 20 GCDs, but something a bit more to do between heals. Mind you, my reference points are not in statics. Theyre pugging the content.

As far as Enmity management goes, i remember levelling a lot of DPS Jobs through Stormblood and the prevailing attitude was "Its your fault you took Enmity from the Tank". Even when Lucid AND Diversion were on cooldown.
If they brought back Enmity management for Tanks, they'd need management tools on DPS and then we'd be right back where we started. Or worse, Back in ARR days with geared DPS ripping Enmity from newer Tanks with the only management option being to stop hitting the thing.

The prevailing attitude also failed to take into account a lot of tanks were bad at their jobs for various reasons. Either they were absurdly greedy, or they felt that they didnt need to be competent at doing dps.

Speaking as a tank myself, I never had DPS rip aggro off me UNLESS they were being incredibly stupid (blowing massive CDs for huge single target burst dps in the middle of a large pack pull where Im AoE spamming to getting aggro). That was aggravating to deal with, but frankly at that point, I let them have aggro for not addressing the current situation appropriately. In boss fights, you wouldnt pull aggro off me (or any competent tank) that did proper openers and was watching the threat meters. Yes, part of proper DPS play was to use their own threat mitigation, and part of the issue was tanks being ultra greedy and not establishing solid threat, but the old threat management system worked out just fine. You had tank stance on, opened correctly, DPS werent gonna catch you. There was more to manage and deal with and yes, it was funner as a result. I had choices - do I use a threat generation combo or the dps one? How much do I get away with. How ham are these dps. I know that a good % of the time it was open with DA-HS, and then go to SE combo, but atleast I had options and things to do.

Now, its just turn stank stance on, hit boss with whatever, and never have to worry about threat again so long as I dont die and keeping bapping the boss in the face.. Threat is a moot point now.

Right now the problem with Monk is that the devs basically didn't fix any of the problems people had with it in Stormblood, the ineffective way they've adjusted it's skills between each expansion, and the way they've repeated mistakes after claiming to have taken our feedback. To quote myself from another thread.

You wouldn't be exaggerating if you were to say that people have issues with every skill Monk gets beyond level 58. You'd actually be underselling the problems players have with the job.

Im not seeing the issues you have. I played a bit of monk for the first Tier of SB, then quit with the changes they implemented cause I really didnt like how it played. Ive been a lot more active in playing it and how it is now doesnt bother me overall. SSS, TK, and Anatman are clunky, but I can see their points. If anything, TK is the worst, because Anatman can just be fixed by not being so damn finicky about not even rotating, and SSS is very niche but Im semi ok with having a skill on hand incase I flub something or an awkward transition. TK is the worst, as it sacrifices GL stacks to get a burst and it costs to much to get it back without using PB. Only time is if youre guarenteed to lose your stacks, so pretty much the end of a boss fight or a long ass transition where you cant anatman. Maybe the simple fix is to allow you to only use it once you have max stacks in FoW, and it just incurs a 30 second CD on it and doesnt eat GL stacks.

But if theres more to this Im not understanding of why its bad, Im all ears. Im just not seeing it currently myself.