Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Vendalwind]

You know the party is effectively split into two groups of 4 during the e7s adds phase right? It would be very challenging to try and engineer a situation where you hit everyone with phoenix's heal there, you'd likely just tag your half of the party. Maybe don't choose that example.

And seriously, 'I think', 'I would absolutely bet', why make wild guesses when there are actual summoner players here to tell you. Is this the best you guys can do now? Did you exhaust all the good arguments in the previous pages?

Incorrect. My static actually does it. We have BLM, SMN, NIN and BRD. because of how the stack marker works we actually just have healers+BLM+SMN stand in the exact center the whole time. one tank takes the right add by himself, and the NIN, OT, and BRD follow the other. At the very least it absolutely hits one of the two groups the entire duration. At the best it hits both groups for most of it, and the sustained dmg is significant during that phase. The center group stays slightly towards the nin/brd/ot group to catch them in AOEs and then only has to single target the one MT by himself.

[Vendalwind]

I actually disagree that it's useless at the pinnacle of optimisation because if you're speedrunning and optimising to that degree you take it into account (just like the finer points of LB gen). Whether it matters or not is another thing entirely. Context, as with everything, matters.

Take a fight like Ramuh - as it is both of my healers have grey percentile healing and so do I. This is with overhealing for all 3 players. My EF overhealed for ~69% last night during our weeklies. I am not changing my FBT timings when our kill times mandate that I rush. But our healers are already doing low %ile healing as it is, they could stand to reduce that even further (in fact, this wasn't our SCH's most heal efficient run, the week before was lower grey healing for her). It didn't change how they healed at all there.

But if we consider a case like Momo opting for a 0 heal GCD speed run of a fight. He absolutely will take it into account, but again whether it matters to that end equation or not remains to be seen. These must all be mapped out. If it helps result in extra potency just from being more efficient with tools, then it will be done.

This doesn't make it something you can reliably lean upon in a more general case. It's nice if it lines up, but if it doesn't, no way in hell is a SMN ever to be expected to shuffled a FBT around in a typical situation just to line the heal up better. Anyone who expects that owes their SMN a better group.

Fair enough, but if we don't consider it a balancing point then mantra, second winds, bloodbaths, curing waltz, and vercures shouldn't be considered either. Very infrequently will a second wind or bloodbath save a life or a heal (since the whole team would need to use bloodbath at the similar time to save any aoe healing.) And to my chagrine I have heard bloodbath and second wind reasoned as a balancing point for melees being below casters (which is exceedingly stupid but oh well)

[dinnertime]

Fair enough, but if we don't consider it a balancing point then mantra, second winds, bloodbaths, curing waltz, and vercures shouldn't be considered either. Very infrequently will a second wind or bloodbath save a life or a heal (since the whole team would need to use bloodbath at the similar time to save any aoe healing.) And to my chagrine I have heard bloodbath and second wind reasoned as a balancing point for melees being below casters (which is exceedingly stupid but oh well)

Second Wind and Bloodbath are (weak) survivability tools that only benefits yourself and exists mostly for solo content. It would be stupid to consider them for balance lol. Practically every job has something like that, too.
Meanwhile Mantra, Vercure and to a small degree Curing Waltz is considered, because it can be used reliably and benefits more than one person. Mantra increases healing potency and finds use if, for example, there's unavoidable raid-wide damage that needs healing through. Vercure is a generic single-target heal that is reliable in a pinch. Both of those you can use precisely when you need them, meanwhile you can't with Everlasting Flight. It's why it shouldn't be considered at all.

[Myon88]

At the best it hits both groups for most of it, and the sustained dmg is significant during that phase.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same phase. Aside from autoattacks on the tanks, you take absolutely no damage on that phase at all outside of the 4 scripted aoe stacks. That's 'sustained' damage?

When I think of significant, I picture something more like the tumults on titan last tier, or the first phase of tea with the dolls exploding. And Lastelli is right that phoenix comes out late as the phase is winding down. You should have questions for your summoner if you are seeing otherwise.

[Silverquick]

The reason why SMN is relatively weaker in dungeons is because despite having a very good aoe burst dps its sustained aoe dps is lacking compared to most other dps jobs. -snip-

To be honest I'm not really seeing that in any of my personal parces.

What I see when doing them with equal geared/skilled players is that I still end up beating them in the AoE portion of the dungeons. Where the actual power jobs start coming out ahead is in Single Target Boss Mob situations in Dungeons where there is not as much movement required so they can unleash without fear. I see this a lot with Black Mages.

They tend to fall behind because they have some really strong starting Burst damage on AoE packs like Triple and Dual Casted Flares, but then they have to build back up again after that and their casting times are a little long.

Another trend I notice on SMN is that the uptime on my DoTs make all the difference in the world in Dungeons on AoE packs. Sure Garuda is a big part of the overall AoE DPS, but generally I do notice that specifically being a large part of the end DPS.

Its AoE is actually pretty strong, but it tends to lose out when the Power Jobs can just stand and unleash even when SMN AoE is stronger.

And I will confess, having played with other SMNs I do believe a lot of SMN players do not know how to AoE properly (yes even some of the Savage players). But again this is not something specific to SMN players as I have run into it with other jobs.

[Akiudo]

snip

and i generally beat every 4th dps as a tank while running dungeons, so ? most people running dungeons simply aren't all that great, and that isn't even meant as criticism, fact of the matter is simply that dungeon runs are 1/3rd people watching netflix on the side, 1/3rd people honestly unable to press 1-2-3 rhytmically, and the rest most likely at least aren't min maxing, therefore not giving a good indication of the full potential of a class, also there is fight length, which in a dungeon is simply way different compared to every other kind of content with short bursts of fighting aswell as lots of downtime.

now of course your argument will be that this just proves your point, that smn isn't godlike in every single situation in the game, therefore by default not op.
However, even aside the fact that the usage of pure dps instead of rdps or even adps changes things a lot, something people including me tried to explain to you in detail, which you completly ignored every single time aside from stating that smn buffs are not substantial enough to give a big difference between adps and rdps, which was completly aside the point people where making how this works, the simple fact remains that dungeon dps simply matters way less than the balance for harder content.

this isn't even going into the whole "only look at 99 parses, no look at 95 parses, no you have to look at every single parse in existance" debate one might have, its simply a result of the fact that dungeons are undertuned by design, the gear you can get in a dungeon is literally worse than the gear you can grab yourself without any kind of weekly cap by usage of currency, be it tomestones or gil, and they are designed to be beaten in even less gear than they drop. theres simply no reason to look all that hard at dungeon balance as they offer neither challenge nor reward warranting any kind of tight balance, balancing for dungeons is like trying to balance out some kind of wacky party game where half the fun is seeing others emberass themselves

[Silverquick]

now of course your argument will be that this just proves your point, that smn isn't godlike in every single situation in the game, therefore by default not op.
However, even aside the fact that the usage of pure dps instead of rdps or even adps changes things a lot, something people including me tried to explain to you in detail, which you completly ignored every single time aside from stating that smn buffs are not substantial enough to give a big difference between adps and rdps, which was completly aside the point people where making how this works, the simple fact remains that dungeon dps simply matters way less than the balance for harder content.

Well then lets start with what YOU mean by "pure" DPS.

The only measurables are ADPS and RDPS. Those are two that are not very far apart on a SMN, unlike something like DNC.

this isn't even going into the whole "only look at 99 parses, no look at 95 parses, no you have to look at every single parse in existance" debate one might have, its simply a result of the fact that dungeons are undertuned by design, the gear you can get in a dungeon is literally worse than the gear you can grab yourself without any kind of weekly cap by usage of currency, be it tomestones or gil, and they are designed to be beaten in even less gear than they drop. theres simply no reason to look all that hard at dungeon balance as they offer neither challenge nor reward warranting any kind of tight balance, balancing for dungeons is like trying to balance out some kind of wacky party game where half the fun is seeing others emberass themselves

That STILL doesn't magically and mystically discount the top 10% of those players who ARE higher geared and higher skilled which is where those things I linked came from. There the SMN is either middle of the pack or towards the bottom.

The only difference is the STYLE of content and how it plays, an 8 Man which is where SMN is ruling the field, plays entirely different than a Dungeon which plays entirely different than an Alliance Raid.

Guess which one of those Savage is based on?

If Savage was based on Dungeon content you'd be screaming that SMN needs a BUFF. Because the only thing that would happen is that the differences in performance would intensify.

Again back to the "tunnel visioned into Savage" I was talking about.

[Nemekh]

DPS is the number before it gets adjusted to ADPS and RDPS. That's what has been said ad nauseam (and this will be the last time I repeat it). It's not about what it is to him or anyone else, it's 100% factual. ADPS and RDPS are post-processed DPS numbers that are considerably different.

Dungeons and 24 mans do not adjust for ADPS nor RDPS at all!

A brief google would have even provided Kihra's explanation of this to you, from the fflogs website.

rDPS stands for "raid-contributing DPS", and it is measuring how much damage you actually brought to the raid. The formula for it is:

rDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' external buffs) + (damage given to others by your own external buffs)

For example, if you are a Monk, your rDPS would subtract out damage you gained from external buffs like Trick Attack or Battle Voice, but it would also add in damage you gave to others from Brotherhood.

aDPS stands for "adjusted DPS", and it is measuring how much damage you did with only single target padding removed. AOE padding is still allowed. The formula for it is:

aDPS = DPS - (damage gained from a set of specific single target buffs)

The buffs removed by this metric include Devilment / Standard Finish, Astrologian cards, and Left Eye.

[Silverquick]

DPS is the number before it gets adjusted to ADPS and RDPS. That's what has been said ad nauseam (and this will be the last time I repeat it). It's not about what it is to him or anyone else, it's 100% factual. ADPS and RDPS are post-processed DPS numbers that are considerably different.

Dungeons and 24 mans do not adjust for ADPS nor RDPS at all!
.

Then what exactly is the problem here?

Because once again we're back to the fact that SMN RDPS and ADPS are not much different than each other. So its "pure" DPS is going to be pretty much the same.

The only place it will apply is to something like a Bard or a Dancer not to something like BLM and SAM.

EDIT: I have a larger point to make though, and this is really why i've brought all this up. The mistaken assumption that Summoner is "high powered" because it rules over one content type but performs middle of the pack or lower in other content types, means that if they nerf it, its only going to end up sucking balls in all other content and only be middle of the pack in Savage... who the hell would want to play a job like that. That is not "balancing" something. Its not and never was a SMN issue its a content balance issue.

[Lastelli]

But if we consider a case like Momo opting for a 0 heal GCD speed run of a fight. He absolutely will take it into account, but again whether it matters to that end equation or not remains to be seen. These must all be mapped out. If it helps result in extra potency just from being more efficient with tools, then it will be done.

He will take it into account, only to come to the conclusion that it's useless. It's just too damn weak, and healers have way too many oGCD at their disposal.
This is momo's current speedkill for e6s.

EDIT: I have a larger point to make though, and this is really why i've brought all this up. The mistaken assumption that Summoner is "high powered" because it rules over one content type but performs middle of the pack or lower in other content types, means that if they nerf it, its only going to end up sucking balls in all other content and only be middle of the pack in Savage... who the hell would want to play a job like that. That is not "balancing" something. Its not and never was a SMN issue its a content balance issue.

/sigh
Nobody cares. Nobody cares about how jobs perform in dungeons. Dungeons have always being unbalanced, ever since arr we've had jobs that perform significantly better in dungeons and nobody gives a damn about that. Everyone keeps telling you that the data you're looking at is meaningless, because nobody is seriously competing in dungeons, because most runs are done via df and are always different depending on how good or bad other party members are abd because jobs are balanced around 8-man content and around limited aoe dps scenarios.

And yes, SMN is too powerful and so is BLM. Their current lead over 3 of the 4 melee dps in unjustified.