Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Kabooa]

As has already been explained to you at multiple points in this thread, Summoner RDPS and ADPS are not much different. Take a look. This was already pointed out earlier in the thread.

He didn't say RDPS/ADPS. He said DPS, as in, no actual adjustments. Just the amount of damage that gets 'sourced' from you according to the battle log, taking nothing else into account.

There's almost no competition in dungeons, normal, or alliance raid. Almost none. Some people do it for lols.

95% is a better middle ground, but under the RDPS metric, 95-99th are perfectly valid comparisons.

You can get BIS without ever stepping into alliance raids, because the first source for upgrade items -is the Savage Raid-, which is out for nearly 12-16 weeks before the contemporary 24 man comes out.

[Silverquick]

There's almost no competition in dungeons, normal, or alliance raid. Almost none. Some people do it for lols.

Even IF you were to assume that was True, it STILL would not mean that ALL BLM, DRGs, SAMs put out extreme effort while magically and mystically its ONLY Summoners who don't give a damn.

ALL jobs would have some who would do that and some who would not, so the Numbers would not magically and mystically put Summoners at the bottom of the pile like that as if they were the ONLY ones blowing it off.

[Renkei]

Even IF you were to assume that was True, it STILL would not mean that ALL BLM, DRGs, SAMs put out extreme effort while magically and mystically its ONLY Summoners who don't give a damn.

ALL jobs would have some who would do that and some who would not, so the Numbers would not magically and mystically put Summoners at the bottom of the pile like that as if they were the ONLY ones blowing it off.

It's also important to note Actions Per Minute for DRG is 39.4 Average, and so is SMN, SAM is at 43.8 , BRD 45.1 , MNK 39.4, Ninja is at the upper end 47.7 , and BLM is at 31.5, If this game was actually balanced jobs that have to do the most actions per minute should be doing the most dps, of course with the exception that some jobs have more risk to reward then others.

Besides i can't really defend Alliance raid content in terms of evaluating performance, I don't think people are geared completely to week 16 anyways, which ends up shuffling a lot of the logs up due to everyone being equally geared, but even then it comes down to RNG, i am sure right now nobody is even bothering with alliance raid me included.

[NaiXizi]

I read the topics discussed by someone. I do n’t think DPS players should discuss the HOT of SMN. HOT affects the game experience of healer players. After the hatred optimization of the current 5.0 Tank, the excessive hatred pressure of SMN's hot is almost No.
However, I think that although Hot can't be controlled, it can naturally align some AOE, and even without AOE can cure MT. So whether it can be controlled or not, it can bring benefits, but the benefits are not controllable, and the effects of the benefits are different, but it does affect the experience of healer players. For example, some healer players understand which AOE the SMN will be in. Launching Hot will reduce stress when heal team.
So I think it's inaccurate to think that Hot is completely useless or very useful. This Hot is a icing on the cake. Because the hot is not controllable, the effects produced in different raids are different. Some raids work well, while others are not good, so it can't be very useful. But it cannot be said to be completely useless, because it can indeed reduce part of the treatment pressure and increase the team's fault tolerance rate. Therefore, SMN's Hot can indeed be discussed as a function, because it mainly improves the fault tolerance of the team, just like raise.
Raise is not used in some elite teams, and very effective in teams that make occasional mistakes. Raise is useless in some raids ，and very useful in other some raids. Oh, by the way, your also know that in the E8s, one team used one Astrologian, 3 SMN, 1 warrior, 1 paladin, 1 bard, and 1 dragoon to defeat the E8s.

[Myon88]

Because you clearly haven't been listening to my point.

Yeah maybe listen to yourself first, you're just repeating the same tired old points in louder and louder voices.

I never even said anything about making it a separate button for summoner i was just explaining a fact of it providing crazy amounts of HPS.

SMN has on average the highest HPS for NOT having to worry about using it as an extra ability, you don't need to go out of the way to provide good HPS
doesn't effect your weaves since its kitted into summoners rotation.

Other jobs have to use Cool-downs to even get 500 HPS while SMN has it baked into their rotation

Look, you can't even get your own story straight. Your complaint about it providing 'crazy amounts of HPS' is directly tied to it being an automatic ability. You need to think about the implications of what you say. And you never answered my question about why it not being an extra ability is such a big deal too. Is pressing an extra button that hard? I don't know about you, but it's a meaningless distinction to me. You could give my rotation 10 more buttons and I wouldn't even sweat.

And I'm sorry to disappoint you but even when 'it works', it does nothing because healers don't plan around such a piddly situational regen. That and literally no one cares about raw HPS coming from a dps job unless they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, hard. That goes for the other guy replying too. There is only one source of caster HPS that makes a difference and that's vercure, because it's on demand and upfront instead of a regen.

I could go into the nuances of raid healing and why upfront heals are more valuable than regens in emergency situations (where utility is most valuable), but I think that's going to fly over your head too.

[Lastelli]

Even IF you were to assume that was True, it STILL would not mean that ALL BLM, DRGs, SAMs put out extreme effort while magically and mystically its ONLY Summoners who don't give a damn.

ALL jobs would have some who would do that and some who would not, so the Numbers would not magically and mystically put Summoners at the bottom of the pile like that as if they were the ONLY ones blowing it off.

The reason why SMN is relatively weaker in dungeons is because despite having a very good aoe burst dps its sustained aoe dps is lacking compared to most other dps jobs. And nobody cares, because in remotely challenging content (ex trials and above), sustained aoe dps is useless. As for alliance raids, they're such a clusterfuck that they really mean nothing and fact that the data is so different from data found in ex trials and savage raids that have a more or less controlled environment should be more than enough to ignore them. But just for the sake of argument, sustained dps jobs appear stronger than they are there because of things like multiple trick attacks and staggered party buffs, combined with the fact that alliance raids display dps instead of rdps.

It's also important to note Actions Per Minute for DRG is 39.4 Average, and so is SMN, SAM is at 43.8 , BRD 45.1 , MNK 39.4, Ninja is at the upper end 47.7 , and BLM is at 31.5, If this game was actually balanced jobs that have to do the most actions per minute should be doing the most dps, of course with the exception that some jobs have more risk to reward then others.

DPS should not be balanced around apm, and thinking about the hypothetical where there's a dps with a one-button rotation and a 1 second gcd (=60 apm) should easily make you understand why.
On the other side of the spectrum, BLM is currently the lowest apm job (including tanks and healers) in the game, despite being relatively more challenging to optimize. MCH is the second highest apm job in the game, despite showing the lower damage variance between median and higher percentiles, meaning that it's relatively harder to score a high ranking with it, because it's a very straightforward and forgiving job so there's not a lot of optimization to do. So no, apm means absolutely nothing in this game and is not a good metric of complexity, therefore it should not be considered in the balancing process, especially because in practice you won't even feel those 5-6 more actions during a whole minute. Many people go as far as to say that difficulty in general should not be used as a variable to balance dps, let alone apm.
I'll also answer to another post of yours: smn hps is all overhealing, either for the smn or for the healers, because whether there's a smn or not, healers won't change how they heal. Another reason why smn regen is useless is because weak regens don't go well with how aoe damage happens in this game, which is why they changed medica 2 and aspected helios in ShB.

[Vendalwind]

because whether there's a smn or not, healers won't change how they heal. Another reason why smn regen is useless is because weak regens don't go well with how aoe damage happens in this game, which is why they changed medica 2 and aspected helios in ShB.

Thats not actually necessarily true in high end 99th percentile+ statics at all. In fact that kinda optimization is exactly what 99+ up are gonna be looking at if they have a SMN in their group so their healers can eek out just a bit more. And if we are to stay on subject most people here have been claiming 99th as the proper balancing point (which I disagree with, both for reasons of RNG and as a point subject of what portion of the player base balancing should be done with in mind.). And without a doubt as these groups learn phoenix timing as an optimization they may see a boost (and consequently less overhealing from the SMN since healers expect it). Regardless tho It's still no where near the utility point as Mantra is or even dancer heal probably.

NaiXixi's line really describes it: "Raise is not used in some elite teams, and very effective in teams that make occasional mistakes. Raise is useless in some raids ，and very useful in other some raids."

We accept balance around raise for very obvious reasons, but raise is useless in 99th percentile runs anyways as a death is unacceptable. Likewise Phoenix healing is a tool, and a strong one, but only can see use as an optimization tool amongst the best of the best. Still outside of the best of the best it may help some statics without them really being aware of it, (as the healers feel out how much healing needs to be done in specific moments they will notice when they need less)

A good example of this is actually adds in e7. Ill bet a phoenix comes out at least some point during that phase, and there is a lot of healing that has to be done. I would absolutely bet Phoenix alleviates some of the need.

[Myon88]

You know the party is effectively split into two groups of 4 during the e7s adds phase right? It would be very challenging to try and engineer a situation where you hit everyone with phoenix's heal there, you'd likely just tag your half of the party. Maybe don't choose that example.

And seriously, 'I think', 'I would absolutely bet', why make wild guesses when there are actual summoner players here to tell you. Is this the best you guys can do now? Did you exhaust all the good arguments in the previous pages?

[Lastelli]

Thats not actually necessarily true in high end 99th percentile+ statics at all.

It's not like the data isn't there. You just need to look at it. You can even check videos of the top speedkillers, and you'll find that it's exactly as I say. To make a difference, EF it should be much stronger. Very low potency regen and lack of flexibility makes it an unreliable healing tool, therefore it's not even taken into account by healers when planning their cd usage. EF is useless in 99th percentile runs and especially so in less optimized runs.

A good example of this is actually adds in e7. Ill bet a phoenix comes out at least some point during that phase, and there is a lot of healing that has to be done. I would absolutely bet Phoenix alleviates some of the need.

And you would splendidly loose that bet, because the third phoenix is summoned at 4:40 at the earliest in that fight if the smn doesn't delay it for the boss, when healing isn't needed anymore.

[Nemekh]

I actually disagree that it's useless at the pinnacle of optimisation because if you're speedrunning and optimising to that degree you take it into account (just like the finer points of LB gen). Whether it matters or not is another thing entirely. Context, as with everything, matters.

Take a fight like Ramuh - as it is both of my healers have grey percentile healing and so do I. This is with overhealing for all 3 players. My EF overhealed for ~69% last night during our weeklies. I am not changing my FBT timings when our kill times mandate that I rush. But our healers are already doing low %ile healing as it is, they could stand to reduce that even further (in fact, this wasn't our SCH's most heal efficient run, the week before was lower grey healing for her). It didn't change how they healed at all there.

But if we consider a case like Momo opting for a 0 heal GCD speed run of a fight. He absolutely will take it into account, but again whether it matters to that end equation or not remains to be seen. These must all be mapped out. If it helps result in extra potency just from being more efficient with tools, then it will be done.

This doesn't make it something you can reliably lean upon in a more general case. It's nice if it lines up, but if it doesn't, no way in hell is a SMN ever to be expected to shuffled a FBT around in a typical situation just to line the heal up better. Anyone who expects that owes their SMN a better group.