Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Kabooa]

You remove Raise, Summoner still continues to be that "(low) utility caster with good mobility (since people like to factor mobility with job balancing)", and Black Mages will still complain about why it's doing better than them when they have no utility and have less mobility, so it won't change things. Not a difficult concept to grasp, either.

The more logical and fair thing to do is to simply nerf Summoner so it's slightly below the selfish DPS jobs.

No, you remove the raise and these topics disappear, because then Summoner stops being this exception to what is otherwise a fairly well tuned game.

Damage buffs are not utility, they are bottom line. The summoner's bottom line before and post their dot nerf was 100% fine, until the raise factors in.

[dinnertime]

No, you remove the raise and these topics disappear, because then Summoner stops being this exception to what is otherwise a fairly well tuned game.

Damage buffs are not utility, they are bottom line. The summoner's bottom line before and post their dot nerf was 100% fine, until the raise factors in.

It would disappear if Summoner was at a more 'fair' spot of being below Black Mage and Samurai in performance. You don't see a lot of people lately complaining that Red Mage has Raise, do you? It's perfectly fine for a DPS to own it, especially if it fits thematically.
Damage buffs even if "bottom line" is still utility by definition. There is no exceptions to that, and that is what the general idea is for utility for the playerbase.

Like Zerathor said, I can't really control what people think as well. I'm in favor of keeping Raise and I see no issue in keeping it, and you are more than entitled to think otherwise.

[Zerathor]

It would disappear if Summoner was at a more 'fair' spot of being below Black Mage and Samurai in performance. You don't see a lot of people lately complaining that Red Mage has Raise, do you? It's perfectly fine for a DPS to own it, especially if it fits thematically.
Damage buffs even if "bottom line" is still utility by definition. There is no exceptions to that, and that is what the general idea is for utility for the playerbase.

Like Zerathor said, I can't really control what people think as well. I'm in favor of keeping Raise and I see no issue in keeping it, and you are more than entitled to think otherwise.

The thing is, it seems most smn don't want to be taxed for having the raise. If you'd rather have smn be slightly lower output in exchange for having raise, I'd be all for that as well, but know you'll be fighting a ton of other smns for having that opinion I'd think. I only want one or the other: smn loses raise, or they go down to being 95% of a blm's input. With smn's type of dps kit though, dropping them down 5% is difficult with how they perform in the variances of fights without fully changing the way their kit works.

[ReiMakoto]

The thing is, it seems most smn don't want to be taxed for having the raise. If you'd rather have smn be slightly lower output in exchange for having raise, I'd be all for that as well, but know you'll be fighting a ton of other smns for having that opinion I'd think.

My hot garbage take is smn should keep thier raise, but make it more thematic than it currently is. Traditionally SMN could only res using phoenix, so making their raise only available during firebird trance would be cool :P

[Zerathor]

My hot garbage take is smn should keep thier raise, but make it more thematic than it currently is. Traditionally SMN could only res using phoenix, so making their raise only available during firebird trance would be cool :P

I mean, I'd be down for some dank memes like that. It'd almost never functionally be useful, but it'd be pretty awesome when it worked and make some good highlight clips.

I mean, I've said in a previous post why Raise tax is a stupid concept. Also a lot of (sensible) Summoner mains have said that the job is overtuned and want something fair for everybody, so that is fine with me.



I never understood why the devs removed so much utility skills in Shadowbringers. Mana Shift especially I miss, and it was perfect for Black Mage to use. I think it should come back as a Black Mage exclusive with better effects at least.
And I don't really mind it if Raise gets a long cooldown I guess. I mainly use it when a healer dies or if healers need help getting people up. I know some people won't like that, though.

I mean, I get not wanting a HUGE tax, but as it stands performance wise, smn is pretty much just a black mage that can raise when it feels like it, or when its needed. That deserves some kind of cost. Imagine an extreme example that every dps job had access to swift cast and raise... that'd be almost silly, wouldn't it? The fact that it'd be silly should give some idea that it has some weight to it, to even have it available in your kit, but right now its just free to exist.

[dinnertime]

I mean, I get not wanting a HUGE tax, but as it stands performance wise, smn is pretty much just a black mage that can raise when it feels like it, or when its needed. That deserves some kind of cost. Imagine an extreme example that every dps job had access to swift cast and raise... that'd be almost silly, wouldn't it? The fact that it'd be silly should give some idea that it has some weight to it, to even have it available in your kit, but right now its just free to exist.

All the DPS classes having a Raise would be silly because it'll make them so homogenized in design. It's been a staple of Summoner and now Red Mage, and it would be weird if everyone else suddenly gets it.
I think something fair they can do is they ALL had one more utility that would help the team none-offensively, preferably with variety. They removed some of those in Shadowbringers unfortunately.

But yeah, I still think that Summoner needs to be nerfed a bit only because it just does more than Black Mage and Samurai.

[ReiMakoto]

I mean, I'd be down for some dank memes like that. It'd almost never functionally be useful, but it'd be pretty awesome when it worked and make some good highlight clips.

While we're in the land of dank meme, imagine the scene.

SMN in firebird trance can spend one of their revalations to instead cast flames of rebirth, a single target off global res, potentially with no weakness too but they have to raise instantly like with an LB3. I think that would be hella situational, but pretty neato

[Zerathor]

While we're in the land of dank meme, imagine the scene.

SMN in firebird trance can spend one of their revalations to instead cast flames of rebirth, a single target off global res, potentially with no weakness too but they have to raise instantly like with an LB3. I think that would be hella situational, but pretty neato

This guy's goin places. I'm not sure where, but I kinda want to see it for memes.

[Kabooa]

While we're in the land of dank meme, imagine the scene.

SMN in firebird trance can spend one of their revalations to instead cast flames of rebirth, a single target off global res, potentially with no weakness too but they have to raise instantly like with an LB3. I think that would be hella situational, but pretty neato

I am quaking with either rage or ecstasy. Maybe both.

[Kabooa]

It would disappear if Summoner was at a more 'fair' spot of being below Black Mage and Samurai in performance. You don't see a lot of people lately complaining that Red Mage has Raise, do you? It's perfectly fine for a DPS to own it, especially if it fits thematically.
Damage buffs even if "bottom line" is still utility by definition. There is no exceptions to that, and that is what the general idea is for utility for the playerbase.

Like Zerathor said, I can't really control what people think as well. I'm in favor of keeping Raise and I see no issue in keeping it, and you are more than entitled to think otherwise.

Hey, that's fair.

See, the thing is I'd also be happy with just giving Black mage a thing to help the party (more specifically the healers).

I outlined it elsewhere, but it only has to do two of three things.

1. Shift burden from the healer
2. Reduce the relative cost of time
3. Reduce the relative cost of MP

Mana shift for example fulfills 1 and 3. Raise does 1, 2, 3.

You could expand it so it also grants the target a Swiftcast charge and it covers 1,2,3, and set it at an appropriately long cooldown (90-180s).

But no, we'll just get another 20 potency buff and we'll be back to this point in 6 months when everyone else gets the circular potency buff.

Edit: And just in case it wasn't obvious, that's a quip and disapproval of how it was handled in stormblood.