Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[ReiMakoto]

The thing is, it seems most smn don't want to be taxed for having the raise. If you'd rather have smn be slightly lower output in exchange for having raise, I'd be all for that as well, but know you'll be fighting a ton of other smns for having that opinion I'd think.

My hot garbage take is smn should keep thier raise, but make it more thematic than it currently is. Traditionally SMN could only res using phoenix, so making their raise only available during firebird trance would be cool :P

[Kabooa]

It would disappear if Summoner was at a more 'fair' spot of being below Black Mage and Samurai in performance. You don't see a lot of people lately complaining that Red Mage has Raise, do you? It's perfectly fine for a DPS to own it, especially if it fits thematically.
Damage buffs even if "bottom line" is still utility by definition. There is no exceptions to that, and that is what the general idea is for utility for the playerbase.

Like Zerathor said, I can't really control what people think as well. I'm in favor of keeping Raise and I see no issue in keeping it, and you are more than entitled to think otherwise.

Hey, that's fair.

See, the thing is I'd also be happy with just giving Black mage a thing to help the party (more specifically the healers).

I outlined it elsewhere, but it only has to do two of three things.

1. Shift burden from the healer
2. Reduce the relative cost of time
3. Reduce the relative cost of MP

Mana shift for example fulfills 1 and 3. Raise does 1, 2, 3.

You could expand it so it also grants the target a Swiftcast charge and it covers 1,2,3, and set it at an appropriately long cooldown (90-180s).

But no, we'll just get another 20 potency buff and we'll be back to this point in 6 months when everyone else gets the circular potency buff.

Edit: And just in case it wasn't obvious, that's a quip and disapproval of how it was handled in stormblood.

[dinnertime]

The thing is, it seems most smn don't want to be taxed for having the raise. If you'd rather have smn be slightly lower output in exchange for having raise, I'd be all for that as well, but know you'll be fighting a ton of other smns for having that opinion I'd think. I only want one or the other: smn loses raise, or they go down to being 95% of a blm's input.

I mean, I've said in a previous post why Raise tax is a stupid concept. Also a lot of (sensible) Summoner mains have said that the job is overtuned and want something fair for everybody, so that is fine with me.

Hey, that's fair.

See, the thing is I'd also be happy with just giving Black mage a thing to help the party (more specifically the healers).

I outlined it elsewhere, but it only has to do two of three things.

1. Shift burden from the healer
2. Reduce the relative cost of time
3. Reduce the relative cost of MP

Mana shift for example fulfills 1 and 3. Raise does 1, 2, 3.

You could expand it so it also grants the target a Swiftcast charge and it covers 1,2,3, and set it at an appropriately long cooldown (90-180s).

But no, we'll just get another 20 potency buff and we'll be back to this point in 6 months when everyone else gets the circular potency buff.

I never understood why the devs removed so much utility skills in Shadowbringers. Mana Shift especially I miss, and it was perfect for Black Mage to use. I think it should come back as a Black Mage exclusive with better effects at least.
And I don't really mind it if Raise gets a long cooldown I guess. I mainly use it when a healer dies or if healers need help getting people up. I know some people won't like that, though.

[Zerathor]

My hot garbage take is smn should keep thier raise, but make it more thematic than it currently is. Traditionally SMN could only res using phoenix, so making their raise only available during firebird trance would be cool :P

I mean, I'd be down for some dank memes like that. It'd almost never functionally be useful, but it'd be pretty awesome when it worked and make some good highlight clips.

I mean, I've said in a previous post why Raise tax is a stupid concept. Also a lot of (sensible) Summoner mains have said that the job is overtuned and want something fair for everybody, so that is fine with me.



I never understood why the devs removed so much utility skills in Shadowbringers. Mana Shift especially I miss, and it was perfect for Black Mage to use. I think it should come back as a Black Mage exclusive with better effects at least.
And I don't really mind it if Raise gets a long cooldown I guess. I mainly use it when a healer dies or if healers need help getting people up. I know some people won't like that, though.

I mean, I get not wanting a HUGE tax, but as it stands performance wise, smn is pretty much just a black mage that can raise when it feels like it, or when its needed. That deserves some kind of cost. Imagine an extreme example that every dps job had access to swift cast and raise... that'd be almost silly, wouldn't it? The fact that it'd be silly should give some idea that it has some weight to it, to even have it available in your kit, but right now its just free to exist.

[Nemekh]

Has anyone tried to replace all R3 that SMN needs to sing with R2. How much DPS
Someone in my gaming world has done this test, using 2.42GCD gear. 470 equipment. In version 5.1
Attacking the wooden dummy of E4S, the result is 15450 DPS.

This is known without having to resort to variance riddled dummy tests. If you're playing optimally in a 2 minute cycle and substitute every hardcast r3 with a ruin 2 you end up losing 600 potency per 2 minute cycle before accounting for party alignment. Let it also be known I have also been pro Ruin II being more punitive a GCD measure to use, but I recognise for the global health of the game that's not a good move for SMN players.

The test is also extremely disingenuous because it assumes GCD optimisation is all a SMN has to do. The job is death by a thousand cuts of which GCDs are just one of many aspects to stay on top of. You can't just treat a fraction of the GCD total being substituted as if it's the only thing that matters as equivalent to other jobs who have a much greater emphasis in GCD damage.

[Nemekh]

I would like to emphasise that the OP's friend is likely coming from the Chinese servers where the RDM buffs have yet to happen (look at ver 5.1, the handles and translated text) and is very much in a timestamp where RDM was being looked down on. The balance, now, is far far better than it was before the 5.20 changes.

[Nemekh]

Also, Jack, you and Myon both could do with calming down some. You always get really worked up when the topic of balance comes up with regards to BLM vs X, especially if it's SMN when you feel things are encroaching more than you want them to, often not taking into account the various differences that result in why things are a lot closer instead of being wholely objective about how the balance lies assuming factors were equal. Observed metrics when everything is still very much in flux is not the way to go about it, at least wait for the dust to settle more before casting early judgments on what you feel is unfair.

[Myon88]

Apologize for your blatant insults, recognize smn doesn't deserve raise if its in this position, and stop making things up, or at least just admit you only want smn to be over tuned because it's your main job.

You can say that all you want, but it will not make it true. Some of you have gotten too used to spouting flowery rhetoric and coasting through discussions on nothing but sophistry. It will not serve you well in serious discourse. I, in contrast, have done nothing but bring up context, case studies, and actual knowledge of what I'm talking about. Your fixation on 'off jobs' only serves to showcase your naivete, there's simply no such thing as an off job past a certain point. You play whichever best suits your purpose, that means I'm an rdm when I need to be, and a blm when I need to be. Did you not watch the Shadowbringers opening movie?

I think this really underscores the fundamental reason you are so discontent with summoner. Red mage, as the most support oriented caster, shines in serious blind progression. Blm, as the glass cannon, is in its element in speedruns and in the hands of a good player. Summoner in contrast is the jack of all trades when you want a flexible, intermediate option. This is what we call a diversity of niches, and right now the casters fill them wonderfully.

The problem with you is you're only narrowly engaged with the game, and have not even plumbed the depths of the one job you do play. Obviously the sheer power of something like verraise flies over your head, you've never put yourself in a position to see it for yourself. Likewise, a punishing job like blm demands an equally skilled pilot. Most people are everymen in this game, and summoner is the everyman job. It's no wonder its strengths seem grossly magnified to you, but that is fiction born of your inexperience.

[dinnertime]

I mean, I get not wanting a HUGE tax, but as it stands performance wise, smn is pretty much just a black mage that can raise when it feels like it, or when its needed. That deserves some kind of cost. Imagine an extreme example that every dps job had access to swift cast and raise... that'd be almost silly, wouldn't it? The fact that it'd be silly should give some idea that it has some weight to it, to even have it available in your kit, but right now its just free to exist.

All the DPS classes having a Raise would be silly because it'll make them so homogenized in design. It's been a staple of Summoner and now Red Mage, and it would be weird if everyone else suddenly gets it.
I think something fair they can do is they ALL had one more utility that would help the team none-offensively, preferably with variety. They removed some of those in Shadowbringers unfortunately.

But yeah, I still think that Summoner needs to be nerfed a bit only because it just does more than Black Mage and Samurai.

[Nemekh]

All else equal the job doesn't and that's precisely my point, Dinnertime. People are misusing statistics all the time just to further their own agendas.

Myon even touched on a big reason for why SMN can have an edge in certain encounters and unlike Silverquick insisting it's mobility based, it's actually cooldown based against phase times. The one change they gave for Trances is what enables much of this navigating of trickier phase timings while still being able to resolve Trances and Demi Summons before downtime has to occur.