Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Zerathor]

Also, Jack, you and Myon both could do with calming down some. You always get really worked up when the topic of balance comes up with regards to BLM vs X, especially if it's SMN when you feel things are encroaching more than you want them to, often not taking into account the various differences that result in why things are a lot closer instead of being wholely objective about how the balance lies assuming factors were equal. Observed metrics when everything is still very much in flux is not the way to go about it, at least wait for the dust to settle more before casting early judgments on what you feel is unfair.

I thank you for your concern, but there isn't a lot of dust left to settle here. I don't really feel like this current setting is an outrage as it has been in the past though, just a very minor tweak off of being perfect. Things are at a point now where at least skill matters more than blindly taking a smn over a blm.

Though a question for your previous post, why does 600 potency per 2 min matter before party composition? potency is potency, its not THE damage that was scaled by your int crit and dh, and various party multipliers, its the value that gets plugged into that, is it not? It'd just be 300 potency less per minute, so... a gcd roughly per minute, right?

You can say that all you want, but it will not make it true. Some of you have gotten too used to spouting flowery rhetoric and coasting through discussions on nothing but sophistry. It will not serve you well in serious discourse. I, in contrast, have done nothing but bring up context, case studies, and actual knowledge of what I'm talking about. Your fixation on 'off jobs' only serves to showcase your naivete, there's simply no such thing as an off job past a certain point. You play whichever best suits your purpose, that means I'm an rdm when I need to be, and a blm when I need to be. Did you not watch the Shadowbringers opening movie?

I think this really underscores the fundamental reason you are so discontent with summoner. Red mage, as the most support oriented caster, shines in serious blind progression. Blm, as the glass cannon, is in its element in speedruns and in the hands of a good player. Summoner in contrast is the jack of all trades when you want a flexible, intermediate option. This is what we call a diversity of niches, and right now the casters fill them wonderfully.

The problem with you is you're only narrowly engaged with the game, and have not even plumbed the depths of the one job you do play. Obviously the sheer power of something like verraise flies over your head, you've never put yourself in a position to see it for yourself. Likewise, a punishing job like blm demands an equally skilled pilot. Most people are everymen in this game, and summoner is the everyman job. It's no wonder its strengths seem grossly magnified to you, but that is fiction born of your inexperience.

so, still no actual arguments? tl;dr: "mE mOre SkIlL aT GaEm, mE nO NeEd LoOk aT mAtHy NuMbErZ!"
I've plumbed to what my job can do, and if I ever had a serious party that wanted to treat this game like a job, I'd perform accordingly, as you did.
Let me know if you want to try an actual discussion above grade school level.

[Nemekh]

Because it depends when those GCDs occur as some of those hardcasts happen under buff alignment, others in filler. All these things must be taken into account instead of trying to wash it off as inconsequential. It's one aspect of many and alignment really, really does matter for a job like Summoner with peaks and troughs where we build the rotations to take advantage of time windows as best as possible unlike jobs where buff alignment matters less because the general rotation plateaus better and hits more like a truck.

[Zerathor]

Because it depends when those GCDs occur as some of those hardcasts happen under buff alignment, others in filler. All these things must be taken into account instead of trying to wash it off as inconsequential. It's one aspect of many and alignment really, really does matter for a job like Summoner with peaks and troughs where we build the rotations to take advantage of time windows as best as possible unlike jobs where buff alignment matters less because the general rotation plateaus better and hits more like a truck.

My point is, they're taken into a multiplier as potency, the potency does not change, the damage does. It seemed you had emphasis on the potency itself changing, when.. it doesn't really. The gap in damage output would shift a tad, but potency wise if its a loss of only 300 potency per minute, thats less impact than missing out on 2 ruin II's per minute. Regardless of the buffs.

If we're talking about directly scaling the potencies, say under just TA, it'd be a loss of 4 potency per cast of r2 vs r3 for what it would have gained buff wise, and not base wise. Which yeah, would add up, but thats also assuming worst case senario that buffs are coming up during your filler and not your DWT or other bursts. It doesn't need to be over complicated regarding potencies, thats the beauty of doing math around potencies alone isolated. It would have a larger impact on actual dps though, but as to how much I'm not sure.

[Nemekh]

It's not about overcomplicating it, it's about making sure we're on the same page of what really matters. The metric people keep citing in all of these arguments - observed resultant dps.

Everything matters and needs to be taken account of. Which so happens to be what I spend a large proportion of my time on to dispel misinformation and keep things within the realm of facts.

[Zerathor]

It's not about overcomplicating it, it's about making sure we're on the same page of what really matters. The metric people keep citing in all of these arguments - observed resultant dps.

Everything matters and needs to be taken account of. Which so happens to be what I spend a large proportion of my time on to dispel misinformation and keep things within the realm of facts.

Right, but regarding just potency differences, if you assume the worst case scenario and your party wants to burn all the big buffs during your filler phase (which shouldn't be the norm I'd imagine), you'd only have to take that 600 potency per 2 min difference and translate it to actual dps under those buffs to find the difference of damage performance, right? Which again would be the absolute worst case scenario, assuming that TA and other buffs didn't go up during DWT, or bahamut, or phoenix, or when you're weaving ogcds. A very drunk drg and nin. And that would be the total loss you would take under the worst possible scenario. Then you can take that max and try to scale it to what is more feasible to occur on a scale.

[ReiMakoto]

I mean, I'd be down for some dank memes like that. It'd almost never functionally be useful, but it'd be pretty awesome when it worked and make some good highlight clips.

While we're in the land of dank meme, imagine the scene.

SMN in firebird trance can spend one of their revalations to instead cast flames of rebirth, a single target off global res, potentially with no weakness too but they have to raise instantly like with an LB3. I think that would be hella situational, but pretty neato

[Zerathor]

While we're in the land of dank meme, imagine the scene.

SMN in firebird trance can spend one of their revalations to instead cast flames of rebirth, a single target off global res, potentially with no weakness too but they have to raise instantly like with an LB3. I think that would be hella situational, but pretty neato

This guy's goin places. I'm not sure where, but I kinda want to see it for memes.

[Kabooa]

While we're in the land of dank meme, imagine the scene.

SMN in firebird trance can spend one of their revalations to instead cast flames of rebirth, a single target off global res, potentially with no weakness too but they have to raise instantly like with an LB3. I think that would be hella situational, but pretty neato

I am quaking with either rage or ecstasy. Maybe both.

[Zerathor]

I am quaking with either rage or ecstasy. Maybe both.

Ragetasy. Its a magical feeling

[Nemekh]

Right, but regarding just potency differences, if you assume the worst case scenario and your party wants to burn all the big buffs during your filler phase (which shouldn't be the norm I'd imagine), you'd only have to take that 600 potency per 2 min difference and translate it to actual dps under those buffs to find the difference of damage performance, right? Which again would be the absolute worst case scenario, assuming that TA and other buffs didn't go up during DWT, or bahamut, or phoenix, or when you're weaving ogcds. A very drunk drg and nin.

Sure. However, I urge not to focus on that one element when my point emphasised was how GCDs on SMN are but one of several things the job has to optimise in order to not play suboptimally. It's not like the impact of suddenly replacing AF windows with mono scathe and then only going UI normally. The fact of the matter is neither RDM nor BLM have a parallel in that regards because they don't have to worry about as many oGCDs, as many DoTs, pet positioning/sequencing and their AI and that's one of the beauties in the differences of the job design.

The R2 argument is brought up time and time again because of perceived yolo mobility, where people only look at the cost vs hardcast r3s but don't consider the costs mobility also incurs on demi-summons and the job's inherent need to want to stay put during Demi windows to ensure no SF/WW are lost and that their Enkindles aren't being delayed due to pet movement checks taking precedence over commands given. It's also not taking into account other angles of failure and dps loss that can and will occur. It's honestly not unlike the whole "SMN is the extra phys ranged" meme when natively RDM, accounting for melee range requirements of the combo, has more instant actions per 2 minute cycle than SMN does when all are playing optimally! The context of everything always matters tremendously.

Anyway, re: raise I've expressed my ideas for it elsewhere several times and rather it be something more universally accessible on a long cooldown consumable with a cast time (call it a phoenix pinion, or just repurpose phoenix downs) where healers are the only ones with access to a swift raise allowing for even tanks and other dps to salvage a run instead of having to wall when all your raisers are dead. It is a vice grip in balance and I wish they'd deal with it instead of giving BLU a more balanced version than what currently exists for, you know, the main PVE game.