It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Penthea]

This argument makes absolutely no sense. Does that mean if I turn off the battle effects on my client changes the vision of the devs? I mean it changes the way everyone does battle on my client? How about when I change the color of the name for players or friends. Suddenly all blue (other) player names are red, and all orange (friends) player names are white. Does that change the vision of the devs? Turning off glamours is the exact same thing.

Again you're willfully ignoring the difference between having options that make game performance smoother and making things easier to see, and something that has only a purely cosmetic use.

Following this logic, removing glamours alltogether is best way to uphold the vision of the devs. They made the new sets, according to their vision. If you change the appearance via glamour, doesn't that change the original vision?

No because we glam in to other gear that is approved by SE. All gear in the game is approved by SE, therefore every piece of gear is part of their vision.

And please don't argue that the glamoured items are made by the devs so it's fine. If you remove the glamours the previous items are still made by the devs.

While it is true that unglammed gear is obviously still part of SE's vision, you have to remember that the argument many here make in support of glam removal is that they think certain gear should not be part of that vision. In other words their personal vision for the game is at odds with SE's vision.

Glamours are made to enhance the player experience, just like dyes. The option to turn off glamours (or dyes) is also one to enhance the player experience. What is more that option does not even have an effect on the players who want to use/see glamours.

While turning off glams would be client side, the moment a person uploads screenshots or streams that content becomes public and therefore no longer client side. Just like how parsing is client side but the moment the results of those parses are uploaded to fflogs they no longer are.

Some players don't like the idea that another person can change how their character looks without their consent. You could say SE could forbid these uploads but lets be honest, they also forbid mod use and it's so easy to find evidence of it being uploaded as screenshots and streams.

Furthermore, and I mentioned this before, if glams simply default to unglammed combat gear, racial gear or AF gear you run the risk of essentially undressing characters, especially in the case of females. Sometimes people glam in a specific way to avoid a certain type of attention, and if glam removal reveals more skin than their own glam does then you are removing what little power they have to avoid this.

You may not be a creep who would take advantage of a situation like this, but someone else might and you can't guarantee that no one would abuse it. I explained in a lot of detail the sort of abuse I encountered due to female characters wearing revealing gear (for context this was during a time in WoW when transmog/glam did not exist and the player wore the gear purely because the stats were good, she did change her gear but it was too late by then because the damage had already been done).

While it's not common for this to occur at such a degree the point is that it does happen. I know that skimpy outfits are not and should not be treated as an invitation for certain comments, but you likely know that not everyone sees things this way. If glam removal comes to the game I personally would only be able to tolerate it if it puts players into modest outfits. I'm not comfortable with the idea of giving creeps a way to see something they normally would not be able to see.

And we know there are plenty of creeps around. The ban waves in Balmung related to erp with illegal connotations is quite famous in the community.

Can you explain me to me why if I change the player names colour from blue to green is acceptable and doesn't ask the devs to change their vision but changing the glamour does. Both options do the same thing. They replace one thing you see on your screen, (the player name / the player armor) with another. If you can turn off player names there is no reason you can't turn off player glamours.

You do not glam the colour of the text above your character's head. It is not something chosen in character creation, and it is not part of the glamming system. So in changing the colour of the text you are not removing the appearance of the physical preferences of another player character. Whether the text above their head is green, pink or whatever the character itself looks identical.

As mentioned before, this is a tool that is designed to make things easier to see. While it can be used purely for cosmetic personal preference, that does not negate the fact that it is there for an actual functional use that aids players to spot things. For example you can make people on your friends list have a different colour name. Glam removal's intended function is purely cosmetic. Depending on how SE decides how players would look unglammed it may even make it more difficult to spot players due to making them dress super similarly to one another.

As for being able to remove names above players/minions, that is to reduce clutter. Again, making things easier to see. Not a purely cosmetic feature. I personally have found it easier to interact with msq npcs on patch day since turning off names.

Changing the colour of the text or making it invisible is a purely ui option. Unglamming players is not a ui option, it's an environmental one.

At least try to put forward a logical argument.

This thread is littered with logical arguments but you choose to see them as illogical because it suits you. If anything this makes some who want glam removal appear unreasonable because they are refusing to see the differences between ui options and environmental ones, game performance options and cosmetic ones. Others turn a blind eye to the abuse that could happen with an option that can be used to put other players into skimpy clothing without their consent.

It would be better if everyone who supported glam removal acknowledged that it's not the same as ui options, and that it should be introduced in a manner that minimises potential abuse. SE would be more likely to take this thread seriously if players didn't flat ignore how it doesn't really resemble any options currently in the game, and that if done incorrectly it could result in harassment.

If you don't want the change just say:"I don't want it", "It hurts my feelings and I don't want it" "I want to be a prick and want to run around in neon glowing outfit like a globe". At least be honest.

The idea of glam removal doesn't hurt my feelings. I am in the privileged position of identifying with the gender and body I was born with, and I happen to like to dress in a way that society finds acceptable. I do not need the game in order to fully express myself because I have this freedom with ease in real life. However I have enough empathy to understand those who are not as privileged as I am, and for them games like FFXIV are some of the few places they can truly be themselves without worrying about getting shunned. I understand that glam removal for them could make them feel that the option allows people to remove traces of their existence. Which would especially sting if they feel that society in general would like to do this to them.

Glam removal doesn't personally sit right with me for three main reasons:

1: As mentioned before if glam removal can result in players being put into skimpier clothes than they glammed, this could result in harassment. I personally have seen harassment related to this get very far, and in WoW during when transmog/glam didn't exist I did have some weirdos say some creepy things to me just because the gear I happened to have on revealed skin in the places they liked. I would rather retain what little power I have to not catch the attention of these kinds of people. I'm fine with other players being in skimpy outfits. I just don't want to wear them. If glam removal comes to the game I would only be able to tolerate it if it puts players into modest clothing.

2: Glam removal is essentially whitewashing the game. Introducing this option would make others feel permitted to have other ways to control the appearance of other players. Requests of removing certain races (likely lalafells because for some reason cuteness gets a lot of hate), hairstyles, skin colours, mounts, minions...the list goes on. Give players an inch, they will want a mile.

Even if SE agree with the idea of glam removal, I can see them not introducing the option due to not wanting to seem like they permit players to erase the diversity of others. I don't think SE want to get known for permitting the censorship of players who did absolutely nothing wrong.

3: I think that glam removal goes against the spirit of being in a mmorpg. Part of their charm is that the worlds are real with real people inhabiting them. Removing the cosmetic options other players choose to have makes them closer to being npcs, and therefore less like a mmorpg filled with many different types of people.

"I want to be a prick and want to run around in neon glowing outfit like a globe"

And to dispell any notions that I am some dolt who just wants to glam with the intent of causing annoyance or distraction this is what I typically wear. As you can see it is lore appropriate and not flashy. I currently have a glam that matches the current event. Generally the only time I have a silly glam is during Halloween and that's usually the ghost costume or some ordinary gear with the pumpkin head. And it can be argued such glams are lore appropriate because these events in the game are part of the story.

Well that was a lot. I seriously doubt you will read most of it but at least it can never be said that I didn't try to explain anything

[Awha]

Snip. . .

Sorry moblie. Will not speak for everyone, just myself. I do think the idea of saying that some that are for the idea do not see the difference between to one being UI and one being environmental is slightly disingenuous. They are different, but for me peronally is it is the core the features share, and maybe it was the primary intent or not behind adding such features, but the reality is at the core they are in place to allow players modify and enhance their own personal experience, to potentially improve it in some way. Even if SE did not have that view when they added the features, in practice that is what they are.

As for your reasons why you do not agree with glam removal.

1) I do understand that is a fear, and I have ran into people that got upset over something I have said about their character, but boils for me why should only one side have the power to control over things that they feel are part of their extensive--it terms of personal beliefs or what have you.

2) I understand this fear also, but I do not think it is fair to label the idea as such since we would not know the reason behind one using the feature and thus any claims of whitewashing or intolerance would purely ausmption based. Even if someone made it know that was the reason, fault should lay with the person and not the feature. I also just not a fan of slippery slopes, but on a personal level if someone wanted to remove lala I would be all for it, if it was only on their side of the screen. In my view my character would still be the same, sure at times I would scratch my head for a moment if someone refered to me as a roe when I am a lala, but I probably would laugh and move on.

As for the the negative twist media and the player base would put on the idea, that is possible but extremely unfair and I do not agree with how people like to project an overarching fear over a tool or feature because people are jerks.

3) I agree, personally I would not use the feature because it does limit diversity that I would see. Not everyone shares the same sense of what it means to be an MMO, so why would one version get priory over the other

One again I do get where you are coming from, and I respect your reasons for not wanting the feature, but in the end those are your faeelings just as my reasons are my own feelings. That is why I think for the most part the people that are for the idea, I know for myself personally have tried to come at this from as objective as a position possible trying to remove as much bias as possible, and if you do break down what every option that allows for the alteration of some element of the game no matter what the mindset was for adding the feature, in pratice they do allow players to have direct control over what they choose to see and not see, At the core that is all the glam removal feature is, sure the other ones have other benfits, but for every person that benfit or reason behin why they use the feature could be different. That is why I like to look at the idea from what would it do at the core, and that is why I see no difference between them.

[Ivellior]

Wall of text.

I can see your arguments, but they really feel far streched, and some to the point of being borderline illogical.

Let's talk about the artistic vision first. I will place items in 2 broad categories. Level 1 items (gear that were literally designed to be glamoured) and Level appropriate gear (ie the gear that drop in a dungeon/raids or crafted high lvl gear).

When I am in town player can pretty much wear whatever they want (either be it lvl 1 items or lvl appropriate items). That is fine and I don't mind obnoxious glamours. Since I'm not forced to look or interact with the "prick running around in neon glowing toad suit". I walk around them, do my business and forget about them. If one of my friends wears that I can always ask him to change his glamour.

When I am doing a dungeon/raid/trial whatever I am forced to play and interact with the aformentioned "prick running around in neon glowing toad suit". I have no option to avoid that unless I drop off the duty.

Now let's the explain artistic vision angle. When you are enter an instanced, you need to wear level appropriate items in order to enter. There will never be a "prick running around in neon glowing toad suit" because that is a level 1 item.

Let's say for example I am finishing the Shadowbringers main story and I'm ready to face Hades. With the glamours turned off option people will be wearing level appropriate gear. That means lvl79 dungeon gear or lvl80 class gear (or newer sets since it has been some time now). Now let's compare that with the glamoured version. I get a tank in bikini, a BLM with a glowing chobobo suit and Roe in a wedding dress.
I find it really hard to believe that the devs vision for this trial includes the colorful trio mentioned above. Not only is immersion breaking, it also greatly cheapens the experience if it is your first time. So no, I do not find it logical that this was part of the devs vision. If anything it is a huge detriment to it.

It impacts my gameplay and experience, hurts my eyes with all the nice neon colors, and I can't do anything about it besides quiting the instance, taking a 30min penalty and hoping the next group isn't as bad. If I have the option to turn off glamours I get nothing of the above and I also don't impact other players in any way. This is the crux of the argument that players make that glamours are not part of vision.

Now for your 3 main reasons.

First of all, let's talk about the possible harrasement part. In order to actually came to pass, as you describe it, the following things need to happen:
1. The player must have the option to turn off glamours.
2. The player must take a screenshot and than screenshot must contain your character.
3. You character must be wearing mismatched gear and that gear combination should appear to be lewd to a potential harasser.
4. The player mentioned above must be upload that image to a public forum and in that image your character name appears clearly.
5. The potential harasser must come across the image and find it lewd enough to harass you.
6. The potential harasser must have a character on your server or create a new character in your server.
7. The potential harasser must find your character in game and then proceed to harass you.

I'm sorry, but unless you have a person that is specifically targeting you for harassement (in which case having the glamour toggle option is irrellevant), the chances of harassment being caused this way is miniscule. Truthfully, I have more chances of winning the lottery, or getting hit by a bus while walking home than getting harassed this way.

I can understand the reason, but it still feels far stretched.

The second point.
What does "whitewashing" even mean in this context? (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...h/whitewashing) How is a toggle that does not affect other people or the game in the enviroment can even be consider whitewashing. Is using the black list whitewashing? Was the game "whitewashed" back in 2.0 when glamour wasn't implemented yet? Are players who are not using glamours "whitewashing"? This makes zero logical sense.

As for the "give them an inch and they will ask for a mile" it also absolutely makes no sense. People will always ask for changes. SE changed the gender locking on some gear and now people are asking all gear to be removed from the gender locking restriction. That is allowed in the gender locking thread but not here because reasons? Since players always ask for more we might as well set a moratorium on player asking for changes.

The only thing that makes sense in this argument is that this option will somehow remove "people's diversity" or "restrict their creative freedom" or whatever. What does "diversity"/"creative freedom" offer to the game? Nothing. It's just a way that allows some players to increase their enjoyment of the game by changing how some pixels look on their screen. What I am asking for the option to increase my enjoyment of the game by changing how some pixels look on my screen and it's not even affecting other people. In short it's a value added feature that makes the game more appealing for some people. And I want to an option to disable that value added feature in order to the game more appealing for me.

Finally the third point (the mmorpg).
I really fail to see how am I dehumanizing other players (ie making them look more like npcs) by toggling a cosmetic option. I do not in any way inhibit them from what they normally do. They can play their game normally, I can play my game normally. I can interact the say way I do with them all the time. I can still form parties, do a dungeon, talk or do whatever. The only thing that changes is that when I will be doing the hades instance I wont have the "glowing neon prick" to ruin my experience.

And finally the game is structured to allow you to customize your interactions with other players. I have guilds, linkshells, black list, and a million other ways of customizing the interaction I have with other people. If removing glamours can even be considered an interaction with other people as you claim (imo it isn't), it's still an option to customize your way of interacting with them. Another tool in the myriads of tools the game provides you to interact with people. Cloathes don't make the people, their interactions do. Removing glamour does not inhibit interaction with other people in any way. I could even claim it helps you spot the real people from the npcs as they wearing mismatched outfits.

Finally I'd like to assume that with your thrid point you're not subtly trying to tell me: "if you don't accept others players glamours/diversity/type of people you are unwelcoming and a bigot" like other people said in the thread.

If you do, and for all the people that think so, I have the following for you:
I don't care about you touting your diversity/gayness/whatever political belief you have.
I don't care about your carefully crafted glamour that took you 5 hours and 24 different dungeons/crafted mats to make.
I don't care if you dress obnoxiously to piss off other people or make them notice you.
You do these to make you game experience better. I want to shut them off to make my game experience better and it doesn't affect you in any way.

[Brynne]

I can see your arguments, but they really feel far streched, and some to the point of being borderline illogical.

You are both right and wrong, and the reasons why have already been explained in this thread (go read the whole post, it's really good):

The folks who are speaking most vehemently for the conflicting positions here are literally seeing the issue as two entirely different things.

The two of you will never agree on this issue, but neither of you is 'right'.

[Packetdancer]

You are both right and wrong, and the reasons why have already been explained in this thread (go read the whole post, it's really good):

Somehow appropriate that my old post gets quoted right as I accidentally re-read the thread and then fail my willpower check not to chime in again.

But yes, I still feel like the key problem is not that either side is wrong per se, but that the sides are just using entirely different criteria and definitions.

First, both sides are approaching the problem with wildly different views. And, as the old post notes, taken on their own, each viewpoint is wholly understandable and reasonable; no one would argue that it's a bit jarring to see a metallic gold snowman on the battlefield when you go to do the Dying Gasp in Shadowbringers for the first time and are at the emotional height of the narrative. But similarly, I don't think anyone would argue that a literal 'turn the game into gender-conformant white people' button is something that's a great look for SquareEnix.

To put it another way, if you're looking at the Grand Canyon, the view is going to be very different if you're standing up top looking down at the river winding through the canyon below versus if you're standing down in the canyon and looking up at the cliffsides towering overhead. This doesn't make one view 'right' or 'wrong'; both viewpoints exist, even if the people standing at them perceive the landscape entirely differently. But it does mean if you ask the two people to describe the Grand Canyon just based on what they saw at those two different viewing spots, you're going to get wildly different descriptions of the same thing.

Then you have the fact that there's at least eight different ideas of what this feature would be. Some folks talk about blacklisting individual folks' glamours so they can just get rid of distracting gear. Others talk about stripping all glamour away globally (for everyone but the player). Some folks want a list of 'objectionable gear' to be added to the game so you can push a button and just that gear gets stripped away when glamoured; others want a custom blacklist where you can define for yourself what the objectionable gear is. People don't even agree on what 'stripping glamour away' actually means; does it show just the real gear (i.e. the tank currently leveling through Stormblood who was glamoured into plate is now wearing the Shisui fending set?), or does it replace it with job-specific artifact gear?

So you have this giant complicated matrix of possible implementations, where 'remove glamour' could mean "put all remote players in job-appropriate artifact gear, but let me still use glamour for my character" to one person's mind, could mean "I get to put together a list of glamours I never want to see, like the frog suit or the wedding dress, and if those pieces show up on someone they'll just be deglamoured to the actual gear" to a second, and could mean "I get to pick and choose individual people and they'll have glamour prisms disabled on my client-side and appear as the racial default" to a third.

And so people are not only arguing from different viewpoints, but entirely different maps. So some people are standing there and looking at the Grand Canyon from two different viewpoints, another person's over on Mt. Everest, two are down in the Mariana Trench while another is on a boat up on the surface, and a fourth's... I don't know, randomly off on the moon. (Cue Destiny-style "That argument came from the MOON.")

Which means there is basically zero chance of this thread ever achieving anything remotely akin to agreement; the best we can hope for is a sort of equilibrium of misery where everyone is equally unhappy, and then—Twelve willing—its eventual surrender to natural forum entropy and disappearance into page 20+ of the General Discussion post history, hopefully to be forgotten forever.

Or until someone like our resident forum troll comes along and necros the thread in 2023.

[Krotoan]

the best we can hope for is a sort of equilibrium of misery where everyone is equally unhappy,

I mean... I'm gonna keep playing and enjoying the game even if this never gets implemented as are I believe 999 out of 1000 of the rest of the supporters. So really ANY implementation of this would be fine AND not implementing it is fine. I'm relatively resigned to the fact that there are always going to be people in the world, no matter how perfect the solution is (and I'm not saying this is perfect) who will have a problem you cannot solve and who's viewpoint is entirely alien to your own.

At this point it's really up to the devs as to whether this is worth their time or the amount of player disappoint this will create (based on the research and questioning I've done outside this forum it's not huge, but that's a biased sample likely) and whether they'd even want to bother. Likely with all they've got on their plate right now the answer is no... but hey.. they decided umbrellas were important.

[Packetdancer]

I mean... I'm gonna keep playing and enjoying the game even if this never gets implemented as are I believe 999 out of 1000 of the rest of the supporters.

Oh, don't misunderstand; my "equilibrium of misery" comment was half for the imagery, and wholly in relation to people's level of satisfaction with the way this thread is going, not the game overall.

[Fland]

Then you have the fact that there's at least eight different ideas of what this feature would be.

Because we don't really know the detail of SE code and process regarding glamour in FFXIV and the effect of adding this feature to the game performance to see what the best solution would be.
I'm talking more on the technical side, but on the visual/aesthetic side of this feature I agree that it's entirely subjective. It'd be a hard to reach a consensus on what would be the best visually for people who want to have this feature.

[Iscah]

1) I do understand that is a fear, and I have ran into people that got upset over something I have said about their character, but boils for me why should only one side have the power to control over things that they feel are part of their extensive--it terms of personal beliefs or what have you.

The thing is, only one side can have the overriding power to control things. Currently that is the player, who has control of how their character is presented. If you give that power to the viewer instead, the player no longer has that control (except as a "viewer" of their own character).

Many of the posts have blurred together have have anyone for the idea said that they strictly want to able to put people in "reveling" clothing?

Nobody has said they want to use it for this purpose (and I doubt they'd admit to it if they did) - rather, it's a concern from those of us who don't want it.

Disabling glamours to reveal the underlying gear would almost always put my character in a more revealing outfit than what I've chosen to wear. So would reverting to artifact gear, which usually puts female mages in miniskirts.

I don't want my character seen wearing that. I've picked glamours to avoid it, and I don't want anyone turning it off because they don't like some other people's glamour.

More generally speaking, there would certainly be a risk of people doing it deliberately to harass others - whether it was a global setting or whether they could "blacklist" someone for the specific purpose of turning off their glamour and replacing it with the underlying revealing gear.

(And yes, I'm sure it can already be done with mods - but it's against the rules and not something they can do openly with tools handed to them by the creators of the game.)

Several of the (many) suggested implementations of glamour removal have involved replacing the character with the default character for their race/background/gender combination. I.e., instead of seeing my character in-game, you would see the default female Highlander character. In several cases—again, see my character—this would be literal whitewashing, and that may be where the objection is being pulled from.

I think I may have been the first to raise that idea, and I do have to apologise for not thinking of it in terms of whitewashing - but I did intend it as an illustration of just how much I don't want people to be able to change what my character is wearing, and not as a solution. I don't really like the idea either, I just don't-like it less.

[Awha]

The thing is, only one side can have the overriding power to control things. Currently that is the player, who has control of how their character is presented. If you give that power to the viewer instead, the player no longer has that control (except as a "viewer" of their own character).




Nobody has said they want to use it for this purpose (and I doubt they'd admit to it if they did) - rather, it's a concern from those of us who don't want it.

Disabling glamours to reveal the underlying gear would almost always put my character in a more revealing outfit than what I've chosen to wear. So would reverting to artifact gear, which usually puts female mages in miniskirts.

I don't want my character seen wearing that. I've picked glamours to avoid it, and I don't want anyone turning it off because they don't like some other people's glamour.

More generally speaking, there would certainly be a risk of people doing it deliberately to harass others - whether it was a global setting or whether they could "blacklist" someone for the specific purpose of turning off their glamour and replacing it with the underlying revealing gear.

(And yes, I'm sure it can already be done with mods - but it's against the rules and not something they can do openly with tools handed to them by the creators of the game.)





I think I may have been the first to raise that idea, and I do have to apologise for not thinking of it in terms of whitewashing - but I did intend it as an illustration of just how much I don't want people to be able to change what my character is wearing, and not as a solution. I don't really like the idea either, I just don't-like it less.

First point I was more so speaking from control not in the sense of the character per-se more so in the sense of why does not side has the right to infringe sense of belief or ideology. Even then going off what you said, it would still require all parties to have the same sense of where the line is drawn. Not a 100% certain how to word it, but no one is revoking the power from the player, only way that power is lost is if one makes the assumption they are using the feature. I get it would be an unknown variable outside of strict set of sitations that probably would not be very common.

I do agree overall overall if the feature was added, SE would not go down the route of being able to remove glams per-se, I do think they would go down the putting characters in a pre set gear, but that is an issue regarding implementation and can be solved through discourse. In the end I do get a the opton has risks, but at the very least for me personally those risks do not outweigh providing players more agency over what they view impacts their overall personal experience with the game. Just as harrassment might be an issue, we cannot deny it might lead to better community overall because instead of someone feeling their only option is to leave or confront the person they could just toggle the option on. Who knows maybe it would even lead pepple to interact with people they would not have because of what they were wearing or looked like.

The option has many if's regarding ramifications, be it positive, negative, or neutral depedning on ones stance and perspective. In the end I do think a compromise could be reached it but would require both sides to limit their scope to a degree, and be more flexible.

I am for putting everyone is thick robes, barely any skin if any shown. I get how that may annoy people due to whatever reason be it immersion or peronal beliefs. Though I am more for the idea to provide more player choice in how they experience and view the game. I would not use it, unless they allowed me to put everyone in a frog suit, then I would but that is just my personl taste.

<3 my Frog suit, or my mask with the butler outfit.