Limited Job #2: Beastmaster

[Reinha]

Let me repeat that, only 21% of the people complaining within this thread have actually played the endgame (i.e. the vast majority of content) of BLU.

And when people were criticizing Eureka some asked "Why is Eureka so full of players then? Why have so many players finished the content if they claim to not like it?"

Gatekeeping criticism or opinions has no value because the people doing it are not consistent.

[Lambdafish]

And why do you think it is the case ? blu is a job you cannot really play the game with. How can you be surprised that people don't want to engage with a jjob you cannot play the designed game with ? That s the whole point of people who don't want another limited job. We don't want separated games within the game.

But most of the content for BLU is at level 60, including arguably its biggest game changer, aetherial mimicry, which allows BLUs to do the group content that people have been asking for. I hated BLU at level 30 and stopped levelling it until 5.1.

I was in the same shoes as the people who are complaining, woefully uninformed about what the job actually feels like at endgame, and refusing to level it because I thought I knew what I was talking about when I called it a waste of time. Now I can't wait to see what they do with the system.

It's very telling to me when a vocal minority actually stands in that same position, and I do wonder how many people would think differently if they actually experienced what BLU was like once you get into endgame group content.

[ReiMakoto]

But most of the content for BLU is at level 60, including arguably its biggest game changer, aetherial mimicry, which allows BLUs to do the group content that people have been asking for. I hated BLU at level 30 and stopped levelling it until 5.1.

I was in the same shoes as the people who are complaining, woefully uninformed about what the job actually feels like at endgame, and refusing to level it because I thought I knew what I was talking about when I called it a waste of time. Now I can't wait to see what they do with the system.

It's very telling to me when a vocal minority actually stands in that same position, and I do wonder how many people would think differently if they actually experienced what BLU was like once you get into endgame group content.

You have no idea who is and is not the vocal minority, neither do we tbf but we can see the number of "likes" and "upvotes" on reddit as a gauge, you just have "trust me its active and popular I can tell".

Also a lot of us are not woefully uniformed, I played endgame at 50, the evolutions into 60 make the endgame smoother and if anything less challenging but it is fundamentally still the same. You're anecdotes about being woefully uniformed and conjucture about how people would think if they leveled it are just that, anecdotes and conjecture. People who disliked it based on its fundamentals will still dislike it this time around, spells being easier to get and streamlining party roles doesn't make it better for us.

Edit: Also ngl dude you sound like a textbook cult recruiter right now, calling other people uniformed at not seeing the truth of something, I was once like you and all that, but now ive seen the light.

[Lambdafish]

Also ngl dude you sound like a textbook cult recruiter right now, calling other people uniformed at not seeing the truth of something, I was once like you and all that, but now ive seen the light.

Pretty much the consensus here is that we don't agree and I'm fine with that, but I will address your "cult recruiter" comment. I don't play PVP, I don't particularly like PVP, but I don't call PVP a waste of resources because I'm not particularly well informed about it. PVP has it's fan base, I doubt people would like it if I derailed PVP threads by commenting under people suggesting changes and additions "please no more PVP, we want that stuff for PVE". Same goes for crafting/gathering. I've made the comparison before between ALC and CHM, and how we haven't lost anything because our idea of CHM as a battle job has never even been hinted at in game.

I'm not a cult recruiter, I'm a fan of BLU, like many many players that I have met in the PF. The content is active (of course not as active as it was, but there are many ways to fix (many of which I have complained about and voiced myself) that unrelated to the core of the content), and if you scroll through the thread you will see so many people (who haven't levelled the job) saying "limited jobs are a waste of time", thats not constructive, it doesn't help the content, and the best people can come up with is "its not a full job therefor its useless", which ultimately is a meaningless statement without directly talking about what BLU is, rather than what it isn't.

As a side note, I'm honestly sad that you haven't tried it to 60, following your post and your opinion, I feel like the synced content at 60 and the BLU log is what you are looking for from the job, it does honestly feel like I'm playing ARR and Heavensward again, learning new strategies, and figuring out BLU as though it is a full job, yet something new to the game entirely. Yes there are things missing from the job, but the BLU log, while it seems like nothing at first, really shows the potential for the role. BLU can almost do its own version of everything that a "full" job can do, just in parallel with the base job system. If you are solely wanting BLU to participate in base job current content (lvl 80) then I'm sorry, but it doesn't make the content bad or unpopular at all. Preconceptions about what you want something to be are a dangerous, and often you should just (as respectfully as possible) suck it up and enjoy what you have rather than trying to force the game to change around what you personally want something to be (See those who complained that DRK wasn't a DPS, and those who complained that SAM wasn't a tank - seriously, people threatened to unsub over these).

[ReiMakoto]

Attempted Emotional Manip Snip

I don't want to adress everything here, because you and I will go in circles with this argument forever as I believe you to arguing from a fundamentally flawed and disingenuous position of what people want and what their complaints are. But what I will address is that if you think that is what I want after reading my posts, you haven't been reading them very well or youre showing how much your personal bias is tinting you. I don't want to feel like I'm doing ARR or Heavenward again, I was there at the time, I did it at the time. The stategies done then with MINOR edits and large skips due to final sting/lvl 5 death are all thats different, and the minor edit strats are no different to man mode or untradtional comp which can be done in current content. The BLU log shows me nothing, I've been clearing content with all dps or all tanks or all healers including 8 man exs since heavensward, dungeon balance is a joke, even current EX dungeons can be done easily and in good time with 4 dps not particularly well geared. This is why it has no value to me, if I wanted to do challenge runs I'd just do them, instead in my opinion they wasted my favourite job in the franchise making "challenge runs" streamlined to the point that youre basically running a normal comp just with some slight alterations, on content that was figured out years ago. Final note, definitive statements like yours saying "the content is active" is entirely relative to your server, maybe to you its active on your datacenter on mine I haven't even seen a pf fill for a dungeon in weeks and the only time BLU content gets done is when the discord runs groups, so thats a solid maybe 20-30 people on the whole data center being "active".

[Auryan]

Neat idea, sure, but was it executed well though? I'll let the countless topics of criticism towards BLU/limited jobs from the past answer to that.

They already do just fine with making some jobs feel different. Arguably the caster role, something BLU could've belonged in, is the most diverse in gameplay. It would've been in good hands if it was a full job. Again, FFXIV is already known to twist around job concepts to fit the gameplay, and they should've done that with BLU. I would rather see a true FFXIV version of BLU than a version of it that tries to be "authentic" at the cost of a lot of things because they're afraid they might offend people if it wasn't, but ironically what they tried to avoid is what happened.

And for SMN, they took a while to find something that actually works and changed their mistake of a design philosophy which I will forgive. I love SMN, I've been playing it since ARR and I'm happy with the direction it's going because I get to summon large, powerful beings and the gameplay is fun and almost perfect. Anyway, I assure you if BLU was a mage tank (a concept we haven't seen fully explored) or a melee/battle mage, healer or whatever that is a full job, it'll still be well accepted than the limited job BLU we got.

Didn't say it was perfectly handled. That's especially obvious when technical issues are holding it back from doing certain things that are level appropriate. That's what constructive feedback is for; to give the devs suggestions to improve the experience. Operative word being constructive.

SMN was generally paying for mistakes they made when they hastily cobbled it together with ACN/SCH than lack of a vision for the job. The result was nothing resembling a SMN for a good few years. I guess they figured BRD (another iconic job) worked well enough by throwing it and Ranger in a blender, so why not? I personally didn't like the results that much, but YMV.

[Lambdafish]

I don't want to adress everything here, because you and I will go in circles with this argument forever as I believe you to arguing from a fundamentally flawed and disingenuous position of what people want and what their complaints are. But what I will address is that if you think that is what I want after reading my posts, you haven't been reading them very well or youre showing how much your personal bias is tinting you. I don't want to feel like I'm doing ARR or Heavenward again, I was there at the time, I did it at the time. The stategies done then with MINOR edits and large skips due to final sting/lvl 5 death are all thats different, and the minor edit strats are no different to man mode or untradtional comp which can be done in current content. The BLU log shows me nothing, I've been clearing content with all dps or all tanks or all healers including 8 man exs since heavensward, dungeon balance is a joke, even current EX dungeons can be done easily and in good time with 4 dps not particularly well geared. This is why it has no value to me, if I wanted to do challenge runs I'd just do them, instead in my opinion they wasted my favourite job in the franchise making "challenge runs" streamlined to the point that youre basically running a normal comp just with some slight alterations, on content that was figured out years ago. Final note, definitive statements like yours saying "the content is active" is entirely relative to your server, maybe to you its active on your datacenter on mine I haven't even seen a pf fill for a dungeon in weeks and the only time BLU content gets done is when the discord runs groups, so thats a solid maybe 20-30 people on the whole data center being "active".

So we are finally getting somewhere. I would describe BLU as "performing old content in a new way", but you likening it to a challenge run isn't invalid. What you have told me is that BLU isn't your sort of content, which is absolutely fine, but it doesn't make BLU a waste of time or resources. You just identified my exact stance with PVP, its just not for me. Why is PVP or crafting fine but BLU isn't? Just because you really like BLU in another game? I'll repeat my argument, CHM is my favourite job of all time, and the devs have the right to implement CHM as ALC, same as they have the right to implement DRK as a tank despite someone on the forums whose all time favourite job is DRK hating the playstyle of tanks.

I would actually like you to address my point on constructive critisism, I would genuinely like to know an informed opinion on why BLU is a waste of resources that doesn't boil down to "I can't do 80 content with it", because that's not what it is designed to be, I can't raid with my ALC either. Once we have that reasoning, we can start asking the devs to improve BLU, and BST if they decide to implement it as a limited job. You can ask me my complaints about BLU too, I have many, the most vocal of which I have been is the branding of "limited job", I hate it.

Anyway, I assure you if BLU was a mage tank (a concept we haven't seen fully explored) or a melee/battle mage, healer or whatever that is a full job, it'll still be well accepted than the limited job BLU we got.

There are other jobs far more deserving of these concepts, Rune Fencer and Geomancer being prime candidates. Forcing BLU into these roles over these two would be a strange direction to go.

[ReiMakoto]

Needlessly Condescending Snip

They didn't implement CHM as ALC, CHM was planned for heavensward meaning the two would have existed alongside each other. DRK as a Tank is also fine, its an iterpretation of the Job operating in normal gameplay which is still true to the jobs spirit. PVP and Crafting are fine, regular Jobs partake in PvP, crafting is not combat oriented and supplements the endgame. Blu does not interact with the endgame or even really with the economy, it takes away a class where other content like pvp does not. I never said it was a waste of rescources, at least not here, I said it was a waste of the JOB, dont put words into my mouth. You're creating a false equivalency with ALC and CHM, as they are not the same thing and can exist alongside each other, in FFT there are Alchemists that sell potions and the lot, and Chemists that are combat oriented. BLU in limited form is actively taking a job away from the main game, even with DRK they had their own interpretation of the gameplay that works and interacts with the games core. I have been constructive so many times on so many different threads its getting tiresome to repeat it all but I will I guess.

What I like:
Aesthetics: It nails blues vibe
Lore: Its interesting and unique and fits as a job
Gameplay*: Blue in DPS mimicry is a uniquely structured magical dps that plays differently to the other Mdps in the game, following a strict cooldown gated rotation with filler and odd burst windows, this fundamentally would be fun to play as a magical dps in endgame content.

* This gameplay portion is my main contention as it stands with limited jobs, there is no reason currently other than lack of desire by the dev team why DPS blue couldnt be usuable in the endgame, its relatively balanced, the only thing carrying its dps above heavensward jobs is final sting and the permanent devilment provided by aetherial mimicry, without these 2 it would be rought the same/less rdps than black mage.

What could be better:
Dual system, allowing those who like the limited to keep it but allowing blue in current content as stated above, as I stated there is no reason why it couldnt, the animations and rotation is all there, all thats needed is some number crunching. This is beneficial in two fold. It allows people who love the blue mage job to main it in game, and it would also get more people involved in blus side content. I know many who might be interested in doing blues limited content, but wont because its self contained, having unlimited blue and limited blue feed into each other increases the participation in both contents.
Tank and Healer mimicry: These are functional, but I would keep them to the limited version of the Job, theyre more like a "sure you could" but they simply arn't tanks and healers, and giving them more tanking and healing tools just adds more credence to the argument of why not unlimit it.

Subjective dislikes:
Running old content as your only core endgame is unappealing as hell for me, these fights are not fundamentally diferent from when you cleared them before, just now youre adjustng around a paper tank, a gcd only healer and the fact that some mechanics target randomly. Compounding this there is only incentive to clear the content once other than the weekly target, meaning its not replayable as an endgame.
Skills: RNG learn rates are simply bad, they were only employed in ffxi as a way of balancing the fact blu didnt have to pay for skills. I know its better now, still inexusable, skills are the means not the ends, and with how they currently are most skills that are learnt are broadly useless/ repeats.
Lack of Duty Finder: Majong has a duty finder, blue should as well, simple.


Finally, theres been constructive feedback since BLU has launched everywhere, just because you arn't seeing it doesn't mean we need to do this babies first breakdown here before asking the devs, we've been asking the devs for a long time. The core of my argument is theres no reason why it shouldn't exist, also you saying me comparing it to a challenge run isn't valid EDIT: I can't read you said it itsn't invalid, why you used a double negative im not sure but it threw my dyslexic brain, ignore this bit, why? You are tackling the content in a way it was not originally designed for using tools not necessarily optimised for the task, this applies to challenge runs and to blue. Overall your argumentation is weak comparing it to PvP and Crafting, as well as any other side content comparisons.

[Lambdafish]

Gameplay*: Blue in DPS mimicry is a uniquely structured magical dps that plays differently to the other Mdps in the game, following a strict cooldown gated rotation with filler and odd burst windows, this fundamentally would be fun to play as a magical dps in endgame content.

* This gameplay portion is my main contention as it stands with limited jobs, their is no reason currently other than lack of desire by the dev team why DPS blue couldnt be usuable in the endgame, its relatively balanced, the only thing carrying its dps above heavensward jobs is final sting and the permanent devilment provided by aetherial mimicry, without these 2 it would be rought the same/less rdps than black mage.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, the best I will say is that they could potentially salvage something from the playstyle of DPS BLU, but you do run into a few problems that the devs have stated as their lack of desire to make a "full" BLU. With an full BLU, do you need to learn the spells? Would I need to go out and collect the primal spells and everything else? If not, how do you justify the existance of both limited and unlimited BLU. Now if it was only unlimited BLU that existed (Highly unlikely right now), do we have a SMN problem where most of the iconic spells are gutted? The other option is gating unlimited BLU behind limited BLU, and I think that would cause more complaints than it is worth. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just think it's far more complicated and messy an implementation than is said here.

Skills: RNG learn rates are simply bad, they were only employed in ffxi as a way of balancing the fact blu didnt have to pay for skills. I know its better now, still inexusable, skills are the means not the ends, and with how they currently are most skills that are learnt are broadly useless/ repeats.

Learn rates are non existant now, and only serve as a motivator to run content synced. I like the trade off and it makes running synced extremely viable, something that I have been clamoring for since heavensward launched. For reference, learn rates are 100% if you run content synced.

I will agree to an extent about the repeats. The real difference comes from elemental affinities, which is something I would like to see expanded upon in the future, condensed libra is a start, but these skills are mostly designed for the masked carnival right now.

Lack of Duty Finder: Majong has a duty finder, blue should as well, simple.

I completely agree with you and there is a place for duty finder content in the current implementation of BLU (sorely needed too). Tying duty finder to the BLU log would help people find the parties they want, and awarding bonus currency through a BLU roulette would make running the content a lot better. I know thats not what you are asking for, but I'm just showing how the current implementation of content can support this request. Oh, and this becomes even better if BST becomes a limited job because it would be a roulette for both BLU and BST.

[ReiMakoto]

snip

Personally I have no issue gating Unlimited BLU behind Limited blu until you have finished the level 50 Job quests. At that point you have demonstrated you understand how the learning mechanic works and if the game tells you what spells are in the "Duty Set" and all spells in the "Duty Set" are learnable in overworld, dungeons, masked carnival and normal modes at 100% learn rate with levels attatched (for example protean wave level 62, if you learn it before hand you can use it on limited blue, but it wont be usuable sync'd below or simply below 62 on normal blue). Iconic spells needn't be cut by this either. This is admittedly more complex than normal jobs (barely but still) but it won't stop people doing it/not doing it, much like you can still see gladiators in the vault, or people who havent done any job quests at level 80. Rebranding to advanced jobs would also solve this issue.

Learn Rates still exist for overworld spells and are simply unecessary

Having the Duty Finder support limited and unlimited is something ive requested since day one. It shouldn't be limited to just blus though, you should be able to just tick a box that says "allow limited jobs" in your duty finder menu.