Limited Job #2: Beastmaster

[dinnertime]

Many people in-game actually don't see limited jobs as a problem and have had a lot of fun with BLU since 5.1. The main people who have problems with BLU are people who either haven't leveled it or people who cannot live without it being a full job, no matter how good the content is.

Edit: I actually went through this entire post to verify my claim. Its a small portion size, but I hope it illustrates the point within this thread. Through all 22 pages there have been 30 people who have expressed displeasure or negativity against limited jobs, of those people, only 7 had actually levelled the job to 60, heck the vast majority hadn't even levelled it to 50. What we are seeing is negativity from people using third-hand information, and not actually knowing what they are talking about.

Let me repeat that, only 21% of the people complaining within this thread have actually played the endgame (i.e. the vast majority of content) of BLU.

It doesn't take a genius to think that BLU and limited jobs is awful game design. Sure, your opinion would have more merit if you've experienced it to its fullest, but it's not that deep to find out the mistakes they've done with BLU.
Seriously, all you need to know is that it's limited. A playable job that can't access ALL content like the other jobs. And to think they did that so it can keep true to its roots. FFXIV has been pretty good with keeping job tradition while having the gameplay fit well with FFXIV's combat, and BLU is just a disappointment because they didn't bother to do so.

It also alienates people who love BLU, the people who have been asking for it in FFXIV, only to find out they made it some joke, a mini game. Imagine your favorite job being limited, would you be happy about that?

[Floortank]

It doesn't take a genius to think that BLU and limited jobs is awful game design. Sure, your opinion would have more merit if you've experienced it to its fullest, but it's not that deep to find out the mistakes they've done with BLU.
Seriously, all you need to know is that it's limited. A playable job that can't access ALL content like the other jobs. And to think they did that so it can keep true to its roots. FFXIV has been pretty good with keeping job tradition while having the gameplay fit well with FFXIV's combat, and BLU is just a disappointment because they didn't bother to do so.

It also alienates people who love BLU, the people who have been asking for it in FFXIV, only to find out they made it some joke, a mini game. Imagine your favorite job being limited, would you be happy about that?

That's your opinion, my dude. I think the design of BLU is great. Some people want different things from FFXIV.

[dinnertime]

That's your opinion, my dude. I think the design of BLU is great. Some people want different things from FFXIV.

Yeah, duh. Obviously, but the large amount of criticism BLU and limited jobs have gotten shows that there's a problem with the concept.

[jon041065]

This is why I said what I did on the previous page. Either they make limited bst and anger the people that wanted a full job, make a full job and anger people that wanted it limited, do something similar to what I said which would still anger some, or just don't even do jobs like bst.

[Auryan]

It doesn't take a genius to think that BLU and limited jobs is awful game design. Sure, your opinion would have more merit if you've experienced it to its fullest, but it's not that deep to find out the mistakes they've done with BLU.
Seriously, all you need to know is that it's limited. A playable job that can't access ALL content like the other jobs. And to think they did that so it can keep true to its roots. FFXIV has been pretty good with keeping job tradition while having the gameplay fit well with FFXIV's combat, and BLU is just a disappointment because they didn't bother to do so.

It also alienates people who love BLU, the people who have been asking for it in FFXIV, only to find out they made it some joke, a mini game. Imagine your favorite job being limited, would you be happy about that?

It's a neat idea. Turning jobs that have no chance in hell of being added in the game as side content that's free from job balance. Sounds rather interesting. And coming from the forums who are always yelling about "homogenization" and "loss of identity", you'd think more people would be open to the concept. Then again, it is the forums after all.

Isn't that the crux of the matter? BLU not being like the other jobs. Balance and content design just doesn't take it into account and that gives it access to things and capabilities that no other job has. Which in turn comes at a price of not being able to do every content due to content not being accommodating (PotD/HoH) or barred as to not trivialize further (max level content). If it was able to hit 80 today it will still be banned from certain things like Savage and Ultimate.

SE does relatively well with job adaptation because they've mostly stuck with adapting easier job archetypes. The simple ones like PLD, WHM and BLM are all clear-cut and straightforward. And when things get more complicated like say BRD, where in other FF titles it's a support-leaning job that has almost nothing to do with bows, they have to bend the idea to fit what works with the game with varying results. And this can go pretty bad if you look to SMN, that was a name-in only job until several expansions later. Some jobs are just harder to translate from job concept to playable job. Which makes some potential jobs unlikely to be added. I don't have high hopes of seeing Arithmetician being added any time soon.

Pick another job? I'm sure a lot of SMN lovers from the franchise preferred BLM (or any job) over 'doesn't-actually-summon-anything-until-SB' SMN. Honestly, people who love a job concept centered around their fantasies were likely to be disappointed anyway. Some people wanted BLU to be a mage tank, some wanted a duel-wielding battle mage and others a healer with a mix of monster-related gimmicks. All plausible (excluding the spell acquisition and other important factors).

[dinnertime]

This is why I said what I did on the previous page. Either they make limited bst and anger the people that wanted a full job, make a full job and anger people that wanted it limited, do something similar to what I said which would still anger some, or just don't even do jobs like bst.

It'll take a considerable amount of resources to give every job a limited aspect just to accommodate one or eventually two limited-exclusive jobs, and there's no good reason to do so. Reverse it so limited jobs have full versions and it would be less work, but I think it's just more efficient to make them full jobs flat out or else the devs will just show how deaf they are to criticism that's been said since the reveal of the concept.

It's a neat idea. Turning jobs that have no chance in hell of being added in the game as side content that's free from job balance. Sounds rather interesting. And coming from the forums who are always yelling about "homogenization" and "loss of identity", you'd think more people would be open to the concept. Then again, it is the forums after all.

Isn't that the crux of the matter? BLU not being like the other jobs. Balance and content design just doesn't take it into account and that gives it access to things and capabilities that no other job has. Which in turn comes at a price of not being able to do every content due to content not being accommodating (PotD/HoH) or barred as to not trivialize further (max level content). If it was able to hit 80 today it will still be banned from certain things like Savage and Ultimate.

SE does relatively well with job adaptation because they've mostly stuck with adapting easier job archetypes. The simple ones like PLD, WHM and BLM are all clear-cut and straightforward. And when things get more complicated like say BRD, where in other FF titles it's a support-leaning job that has almost nothing to do with bows, they have to bend the idea to fit what works with the game with varying results. And this can go pretty bad if you look to SMN, that was a name-in only job until several expansions later. Some jobs are just harder to translate from job concept to playable job. Which makes some potential jobs unlikely to be added. I don't have high hopes of seeing Arithmetician being added any time soon.

Pick another job? I'm sure a lot of SMN lovers from the franchise preferred BLM (or any job) over 'doesn't-actually-summon-anything-until-SB' SMN. Honestly, people who love a job concept centered around their fantasies were likely to be disappointed anyway. Some people wanted BLU to be a mage tank, some wanted a duel-wielding battle mage and others a healer with a mix of monster-related gimmicks. All plausible (excluding the spell acquisition and other important factors).

Neat idea, sure, but was it executed well though? I'll let the countless topics of criticism towards BLU/limited jobs from the past answer to that.

They already do just fine with making some jobs feel different. Arguably the caster role, something BLU could've belonged in, is the most diverse in gameplay. It would've been in good hands if it was a full job. Again, FFXIV is already known to twist around job concepts to fit the gameplay, and they should've done that with BLU. I would rather see a true FFXIV version of BLU than a version of it that tries to be "authentic" at the cost of a lot of things because they're afraid they might offend people if it wasn't, but ironically what they tried to avoid is what happened.

And for SMN, they took a while to find something that actually works and changed their mistake of a design philosophy which I will forgive. I love SMN, I've been playing it since ARR and I'm happy with the direction it's going because I get to summon large, powerful beings and the gameplay is fun and almost perfect. Anyway, I assure you if BLU was a mage tank (a concept we haven't seen fully explored) or a melee/battle mage, healer or whatever that is a full job, it'll still be well accepted than the limited job BLU we got.

[jon041065]

It'll take a considerable amount of resources to give every job a limited aspect just to accommodate one or eventually two limited-exclusive jobs, and there's no good reason to do so. Reverse it so limited jobs have full versions and it would be less work, but I think it's just more efficient to make them full jobs flat out or else the devs will just show how deaf they are to criticism that's been said since the reveal of the concept.

I didn't say to add a limited version of every job.

I'm definitely against limited jobS but was for the idea of there being a single one such as onion knight/freelancer. I won't deny though that some do want the side content aspect of what "limited" BST could bring. To me the idea of tying a job to this type of content is a bad idea but not the content itself. So I say do both which yes would require resources but at least SE would know that such side content would have a better reception than some of their past ideas.

[dinnertime]

I didn't say to add a limited version of every job.

I'm definitely against limited jobS but was for the idea of there being a single one such as onion knight/freelancer. I won't deny though that some do want the side content aspect of what "limited" BST could bring. To me the idea of tying a job to this type of content is a bad idea but not the content itself. So I say do both which yes would require resources but at least SE would know that such side content would have a better reception than some of their past ideas.

Sorry, when you said "Make the "limited" aspect of BST something any job can do" I thought that's what you meant, but I can see that working out. Maybe.

[ReiMakoto]

Snip

You dont always need to play something to know that you do not and will not like it. I levelled blu to 50 and did a lot of content on it, so:
1. I will not enjoy the new 10 levels of leveling, level grinding in the overworld is tedious
2. I will not enjoy the new masked carnival, ffxiv is too simplistic to work well in a solo context, I have seen the new stages, they dont fix this problem
3. The new spells are not interesting to me, 30% of them or something are just new elemental aoes, and the others just function like skills we've seen on other classes mostly, the few vaguely interesting spells would not be exclusive to a limited job anyway.
4. I would not enjoy the BLU log, i run dungeons a lot doing those dungeons again, just on blu for rewards i dont want or need is something thats a hard sell, especially when the PF is as dead on my server as it is.
5. Morbol Mount. Again, if I wanted to run old raids Id just run old raids, doing it on BLU is something i wouldnt find l that fun, doing a Man Mode is something way more interesting. This is because fundamentally, BLU just plays as a normal DPS with the occasional gimmick (l 5 death or diamondback a mechanic you could just do correctly), then on tank and healer youre just trying to immitate those roles poorly, Tanking on BLU is sheer misery, and gcd healing is boring af so i wouldnt enjoy either of those to. So if I was just playing dps blu, id get annoyed because I cant see why it should be limited and as a result would not enjoy the content.

So all this begs the question, why would I force myself through content I know I wouldnt enjoy to criticise it, as a consumer its much more powerful a statement to not engage as it adds to statistics of failure which is ultimately more valuable than forum feedback. Think of it this way with this hypothetical, if I bought Fifa and didnt enjoy it fundamentally because I dont enjoy it because of say the camera, so i dont buy the next one cos it doesnt matter what other changes are made because that fundamental hasnt changed, and complaining despite not owning is still valid

Edit: Quoted the wrong person.

Also to your earlier points about smn and yoshi supporting limited bst. I believe other users have convered it better than I will but SMN is one of the most popular jobs since the game released, and ever since demis there hasnt been much of a summoner identitiy complaint, even the thread you linked had barely any interaction. As for Yoshi supporting BST as limited, thats sorta the problem a lot of us are getting at, his vision is too narrowly focused on the FFXI versions of these jobs that he couldn't see them working any other way, when there are more games where they dont function how they do in XI than there are where they do.

[Stanelis]

Let me repeat that, only 21% of the people complaining within this thread have actually played the endgame (i.e. the vast majority of content) of BLU.

And why do you think it is the case ? blu is a job you cannot really play the game with. How can you be surprised that people don't want to engage with a jjob you cannot play the designed game with ? That s the whole point of people who don't want another limited job. We don't want separated games within the game.