It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Awha]

Well, as far as I can remember, most of the "lack of empathy" accusations (or certainly a portion of them) have been from the side in favour trying to say that those against are lacking empathy for them. Either it was here or the last time the same topic came up - and it hurts, because I do care about how I treat others but in this case I'm being told I'm the opposite.

I wouldn't throw the accusation exactly because it's miserable to be in the receiving end. Empathy shouldn't be a buzzword for scoring points.

I do agree empathy should not be a buzzword, but from the perspective of those that are in favor of this feature it does seem like the other side does not care how they feel about the sitution, telling them to grow up, learn to accept it, find another game etc . . .

Even when the side that is in favor mentions that in the end outside of finding a stream of a person who has the feature enabled, finding a screen shot, or being told the people against the idea would honestly have no idea someone was using it, and at that point only way it would impact them is if they made the assumption that most people are using the feature and at that point it no longer matters what someone wears.

Which is a self imposed limitionation.

You're "not preventing my choice" only by your definition. As I have tried to explain, there are two ways of feeling about that.

It's an unwinnqble argument because if I say "yes I feel affected by you changing my character on your screen" you just declare my opinion invalid. There's nothing wrong and I'm really not affected at all.

How do I possibly refute that, IF my point is valid and the person rejecting it is wrong?



(Now I am out of this argument for now because I really need to be doing real-world important things.)

Think the question people have been asking is not that if you will be affected if people changed your character per-se. More so would you be affected if this feature was implemented and just like current mods you had no real way of knowing if a person had a feature enabled outside of you finding their stream, screenshot, or them teling you?

Forgive me for assuming but I am willing to bet you do not think most people you run across have mods installed that alter the appearance of others. so why would that mindset change if the feature was added by SE? Just go around as you were and your gameplay would not be impacted, unless you start to assume every would have the feature on by default then at that point I could see why you would feel it has a negative impact on your attire and choices made for your character.

[Arillyn]

I have a more technical question (or questions). How does this work? Say SE says okay we'll implement this toggle.

Does it only work for people who are actually glamoured? If so, like I said previously I have an alt that is currently wearing the coliseum gear because it's best for her level right now. It's not glamoured. You'll still see me in a metal bikini.

What is the default? Basic AF gear for that job? If so not everyone who glamours is at level to even wear it themselves. Maybe that part doesn't matter I don't know.

Those just popped in my head.

[Awha]

I have a more technical question (or questions). How does this work? Say SE says okay we'll implement this toggle.

Does it only work for people who are actually glamoured? If so, like I said previously I have an alt that is currently wearing the coliseum gear because it's best for her level right now. It's not glamoured. You'll still see me in a metal bikini.

What is the default? Basic AF gear for that job? If so not everyone who glamours is at level to even wear it themselves. Maybe that part doesn't matter I don't know.

Those just popped in my head.

Personally I think the easiest way would be if you enable the feature it puts everyone in AF gear or some basic black robe. Though I do think I would be in the minority but I am a lalafell that uses the frog and pig suit regularly so my sense of style leaves much to be desired.

[SamRF]

What about this, the ultimate compromise of compromises:

An option to change someone into a set basic char for each job. So you won't just see character in question with different gear, you'll see a completely different character that will be the same one every time you use this option (for each job). This way, you won't be changing how a character presents itself, you change the whole character. The character may even look like companions from MSQ. Except for their motions and combat, they no longer represent the player's character in any way.

[Arillyn]

Personally I think the easiest way would be if you enable the feature it puts everyone in AF gear or some basic black robe. Though I do think I would be in the minority but I am a lalafell that uses the frog and pig suit regularly so my sense of style leaves much to be desired.

Yea that would probably be the easiest way for them to do it. I think if SE does this though I think everyone should just be in the frog suit! Personally every time I see someone in a CS in the frog suit it makes me grin lol.

[Packetdancer]

What about this, the ultimate compromise of compromises:

An option to change someone into a set basic char for each job. So you won't just see character in question with different gear, you'll see a completely different character that will be the same one every time you use this option (for each job). This way, you won't be changing how a character presents itself, you change the whole character. The character may even look like companions from MSQ. Except for their motions and combat, they no longer represent the player's character in any way.

As I noted earlier in the thread, I have some Serious Yikes about this idea if you're just replacing people with the default for their race/gender/background.

If you glance over at my character appearance to the left of this post, you will note that she has fairly dark skin; if you look at the default Hyuran highlander female in chargen, you will note that she does not.

If you think this thread is heated, just imagine the comments on something like that. Whether or not you think that changing someone's clothing is an issue, I do not think it would make for good publicity if someone could write up an article with a headline for Kotaku or Polygon of "SquareEnix lets you turn FFXIV into a White Supremacist's Paradise: new patch lets you remove all dark-skinned characters with the press of a button."

In the end, the debate about clothing in glamour is one that's inherently argued wholly from personal emotional positions. And both sides can each see the other as lacking in empathy and/or willfully ignoring their own concerns. After all, your position, which is [for/against] this feature, is clearly the reasonable one—as anyone can see, while the people arguing [against/for] this feature are clearly just being selfish because they are restricting personal choice by refusing to respect your wholly-reasonable personal preference. Clearly, they are lacking in empathy, and being [precious snowflakes/bigots], or whatever other dismissive (and possibly reductive) term of insult best brushes the opposing position away.

We're never going to reach agreement because both viewpoints are wholly valid, and there's literally no objective basis to say that one viewpoint is 'more valid' than the other. Anyone—on either side—who says their opinion is objectively the 'right' one is being willfully blind, because there is literally no part of this discussion which is remotely objective.

But trying to find a middle ground by allowing people to replace all characters—of all skin tones—with the fair-skinned defaults? That one, I can say with reasonable surety that I do not see any way in which the resulting public perception ends up being an overall good one. Regardless of the intent behind such an idea.

And I guarantee you if you made one of the set characters be dark-skinned, there'd be a contingent who howled about how that's not their character and it's all the fault of the "Social Justice Warriors" ruining gaming.

(Which is silly. I mean, just speaking for myself, I am clearly predominantly a Social Justice White Mage; I haven't even leveled Marauder high enough to get a Warrior soul crystal! If I am going to be tanking, obviously I'm a Social Justice Dark Knight!)

[Awha]

As I noted earlier in the thread, I have some Serious Yikes about this idea if you're just replacing people with the default for their race/gender/background.

If you glance over at my character appearance to the left of this post, you will note that she has fairly dark skin; if you look at the default Hyuran highlander female in chargen, you will note that she does not.

If you think this thread is heated, just imagine the comments on something like that. Whether or not you think that changing someone's clothing is an issue, I do not think it would make for good publicity if someone could write up an article with a headline for Kotaku or Polygon of "SquareEnix lets you turn FFXIV into a White Supremacist's Paradise: new patch lets you remove all dark-skinned characters with the press of a button."

In the end, the debate about clothing in glamour is one that's inherently argued wholly from personal emotional positions. And both sides can each see the other as lacking in empathy and/or willfully ignoring their own concerns. After all, your position, which is [for/against] this feature, is clearly the reasonable one—as anyone can see, while the people arguing [against/for] this feature are clearly just being selfish because they are restricting personal choice by refusing to respect your wholly-reasonable personal preference. Clearly, they are lacking in empathy, and being [precious snowflakes/bigots], or whatever other dismissive (and possibly reductive) term of insult best brushes the opposing position away.

We're never going to reach agreement because both viewpoints are wholly valid, and there's literally no objective basis to say that one viewpoint is 'more valid' than the other. Anyone—on either side—who says their opinion is objectively the 'right' one is being willfully blind, because there is literally no part of this discussion which is remotely objective.

But trying to find a middle ground by allowing people to replace all characters—of all skin tones—with the fair-skinned defaults? That one, I can say with reasonable surety that I do not see any way in which the resulting public perception ends up being an overall good one. Regardless of the intent behind such an idea.

And I guarantee you if you made one of the set characters be dark-skinned, there'd be a contingent who howled about how that's not their character and it's all the fault of the "Social Justice Warriors" ruining gaming.

(Which is silly. I mean, just speaking for myself, I am clearly predominantly a Social Justice White Mage; I haven't even leveled Marauder high enough to get a Warrior soul crystal! If I am going to be tanking, obviously I'm a Social Justice Dark Knight!)

I agree with your post, it did get me thinking am I just out of touch with the world this is regarding the part regarding the negative press around White Supremacist's Paradise, I do get this meant to be an exgrateration but I could see gaming sites write articles like that.

I must be out of touch because I generally do not see what is the problem if someone wanted to make their game world into a White Supremacist's Paradise, because at the end of the day we will never really know why they made the choice to use the option unless said person streams, takes screen shots, or lets others know. Even then if they did any of those all it would let us know is that they have the option enabled but we would not be able to tell the reasoning behind enabling the choice. I get where people are coming from, and as others have said it might just boi down to a lack of empathy but I have a hard time feeling bad per-se over something that outside of certain circumstances most likely no one would ever know.

It feels kind of fear mongering so to speak. Do not get me worng this is not aimed towards you just a general feeling I get.

[Theodric]

I don't even notice a character's skin tone most of the time. Though let's keep on the correct track - the suggestion is about limiting glamour rather than race or skin tone.

[PharisHanasaki]

Interesting, I am very late to the discussion, but for me it's the uniqueness of each character that I like in MMOs. It was a very long time ago when everyone would have the same look and we would yearn for some level of customization.

But maybe you'd rather have this

[Awha]

Interesting, I am very late to the discussion, but for me it's the uniqueness of each character that I like in MMOs. It was a very long time ago when everyone would have the same look and we would yearn for some level of customization.

But maybe you'd rather have this

Well one problem I see if the lack of Lalafell, other then that I could get behind that. :P