It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Nariel]

All this does is make arguments that people use glamours as harassment with no repercussions. Wearing what you like is one thing, purposefully dressing to antagonize and placing yourself in common hubs is another.

I've never, ever in years of game and AFKing in hubs and I mean it, I never once in my gaming lifetime on any MMO witnessed an argument by people offended by a silly attire. I never read a single line of anybody being mad at someone doing silly gear or being offended by a Colibri Pink bridemaid dress on the world chat E V E R. People having fun together being silly with no other reason to have fun ? Yup, definitely took part of it too many time to count, how about you stop being special snowflakes and have fun rather than being offended by what make MMO so special ?

[SturmChurro]

I've never, ever in years of game and AFKing in hubs and I mean it, I never once in my gaming lifetime on any MMO witnessed an argument by people offended by a silly attire. I never read a single line of anybody being mad at someone doing silly gear or being offended by a Colibri Pink bridemaid dress on the world chat E V E R. People having fun together being silly with no other reason to have fun ? Yup, definitely took part of it too many time too count, how about you stop being special snowflakes and have fun rather than being offended by what make MMO so special ?

Well, now you have. This is the great community of FFXIV that everyone always talks about! It is what makes this place one of a kind.

[Nariel]

Well, now you have. This is the great community of FFXIV that everyone always talks about! It is what makes this place one of a kind.

I mean in game, forums have always been a weird place with people ranting about just anything to show the world how special they are.

[Kohl]

“Vain trifles as they seem, clothes have, they say, more important offices than to merely keep us warm. They change our view of the world and the world's view of us.”
― Virginia Woolf, Orlando

I have a level of separation between me and my character in FFXIV. The main areas where there is an overlap are more subtle ones that happen because it can’t be helped; I play the character, therefor elements of me bleed over, like my preference for wearing black/dark colors. To varying degrees other players may have more or less separation with their characters; it may be individually important to many players that they are allowed to safely express their own identity through their characters. Everyone does this, most often without giving it conscious thought, to some extent in everything they do (you can learn a great deal about people by observing the choices they make out of reflex). It is also likely that the spectrum is pretty broad; from those that can freely express their identity with minimal backlash (there is always some backlash), to expressing their self-identity having severe consequences. I am not going to cast any judgments on whether or not this is or isn’t healthy, mainly because on the individual basis it may or may not actually be quite healthy. For example, if someone is struggling with suicidal thoughts but the love of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches is keeping them from self-harm, by all means, hold on to that, BP&J is 100% healthy for that person to buy them enough time to develop more things to hold onto life for.

Overlooking this factor and saying that it hurts no one to have this feature is something I have a problem with; the desire to (even in private on your own personal screen that views SE’s intellectual property) mute what outlet some have to express their identity is disturbing to me. From my perspective, if something would be bad if everyone did it, than there is a good chance it is bad for some, or a few, or even one person to do. Less harmful is still harmful. Maybe it is a minority who are expressing their identity or even autonomy through their characters, or maybe it is bigger than we can measure because of various factors (not on this forum, not wanting to wade into a hot topic… whatever), but it still doesn’t sit well with me.

I’ve stated before that there was a time that I would have landed on the side of people who want a filter, but over my years I have shifted where I stand on topics like this. So it isn’t like I do not understand the other side of the argument, I get it. I just don’t think it is a good idea anymore. Which sure, is my opinion, but it is based on experience and education (and no, that is not meant to imply that an experienced and educated person should have a similar stance as me because of having two things in common).

Immersion – arguing that it breaks immersion to see glamour that are jarring is inherently a more difficult argument to make due to the fact that we simply cannot have any glamour/gear item that the developers and authors of the games theme do not give us; they set the theme and tone and provide us with the world and the things in it. It is impossible for me to design my own gear and have it visible to the whole player base. This argument is more that someone else’s character image breaks another’s individual theme they are projecting onto the game.

Bigotry – is not a constructive word to throw around. It gets people all defensive and offended and starts getting tossed about like a hot potato (that’s on fire). A bigot is a person who is intolerant toward those holding a different opinion to them. Let’s be really clear, intolerant to the person holding the opinion, not the opinion itself. Bias might be a slightly better word to use as it has a broader meaning; it is felt towards any number of nouns. The thing about bias is that it is impossible to not be biased about something, no human is free of bias; so it’s a bit pointless to throw around but has a place while acknowledging personal bias.

I am not trying to inflict my values on others; I simply wish to be heard.

[Packetdancer]

This isn't about targeting people, it would be a blanket change, that is the only thing that is important. People aren't asking for "I want to change this person into this specific glamour", they are asking "can I turn off glamours to maintain immersion".

I mean, part of the problem is that people aren't consistent on what they're requesting. (Nor, for that matter, what they're objecting to.)

Just among those in favor, off the top of my head:

• Some folks have suggested they want a per-person blacklist where you can only pick specific players and disable the glamour system for them (i.e., showing whatever gear they're wearing, just disabling any glamour prism use for that person).
• Others have suggested they want a global way to just disable glamour prisms for everyone but their own character.
• Other folks have suggested they want a system that just globally puts everyone in job-appropriate artifact gear suited to their level.
• Others have suggested they would be fine with a system that just put people in the first set of artifact gear, period.
• Others have suggested that if people are upset about their character being changed, all characters just be replaced with the default character for that race/gender/background (i.e., the Poster Boy for Hyuran male midlander, etc.).
• Others have suggested that if people are upset about their character being changed, while others are concerned about the idea of replacing all dark-skinned NPCs with the light-skinned defaults, that all characters just be replaced with randomly-generated equivalents (like hitting the 'random' button in chargen) when glamour is disabled.
• Others have suggested that SquareEnix should curate a list of 'offensive' pieces which can be replaced with some alternate appearance. So, presumably, not just glamour, but making revealing things like the Shisui armor sets, the YoRHa armor sets, the dancer artifact gear, etc. all have separate 'less revealing/less skimpy' appearances to toggle on. (I may be misunderstanding this suggestion, to be fair; I'm not entirely clear what it was being suggested these pieces be replaced with.)

At any rate, that's a pretty broad spectrum of different things in the 'for the feature', and while it's possible to say "there's a lot of support for this feature!" I suspect that not all of those people like the same ideas from that last. I'd go so far as to say I suspect some in favor of the feature (in the abstract) might not be happy if certain of those suggestions were to be actually implemented.

Meanwhile, different people objecting all object to different things, sometimes to more than one thing on this list:

• Some view glamours as akin to art, and saying "I don't like this glamour so I demand it be removed" as being akin to going up to DeviantArt and demanding a painting you dislike be taken down, rather than just not visiting the page.
• Some deal with their gender presentation (or other aspects of identity) being restricted in the offline world—due to a dress code at work, expectations of family who aren't supportive, or whatever—so engage in it a bit in-game as an outlet. For those folks, even if their character isn't them, the idea of giving people a button to erase their identity in-game the same way they have to erase their identity iRL just feels like one more blow. As though they're being silenced yet again. (After all, the OP did explicitly call out men wearing the wedding gown as a motive for this request, which definitely is something I suspect non-binary folks who present masculine but like to dress feminine would feel is a bit of a personal attack on their identity.)
• Some deal with being judged on their clothing in day-to-day life ("You'd be prettier if you wore a skirt, you know. Show off those legs!") and find the idea of people trying to dictate what they can and can't wear in virtual worlds as well to be emotionally exhausting to contemplate. Just like, "Really? Here, too?"
• Some are RPers and find the idea of dictating their clothing/outfit to be akin to power-posing or godmoding, which is considered a faux pas. (The difference between "Khit stalks across the room and slaps Joe hard enough to rock him backwards." and "Khit stalks across the room, drawing her hand back as she approaches Joe. If he doesn't move, it's clear she's going to hit him with some force." The first is godmoding; it dictates Joe's reaction for him, giving him no option to try to dodge or grab Khit's wrist or whatever else. In contrast, the second leaves it open for him to react.)
• Some think the idea of replacing all characters with the racial defaults—even if it's coming from a well-meaning place of "see, that way, I'm not altering your character's appearance"—is faintly horrifying in the unintended potential white-washing.
• Some just find the "push a button to make the things you personally dislike disappear" mindset a little worrisome in an increasingly hostile and divided world, where they'd prefer folks learn tolerance of each other and maybe begin to get along.
• Some just dislike the idea of the 'strip away glamour and show actual job gear' removing their pants on someone's stream. (Again: why is so much female healer leg gear more or less underwear?)

I mean, I personally tick off a few different ones of the 'opposed' boxes; as a woman in a technical field I get judged on clothing on a day-to-day basis—that I dress 'too tomboyishly' for some people's tastes, etc.—and it feels a little exhausting to feel like the same thing is such a rallying point among the community around one of my favorite virtual worlds as well. I find the idea of replacing all characters with the fair-skinned defaults (as several people suggested) to be an extremely uncomfortable idea.

And I would like to keep my pants, thank you. Plus, I'm honestly not sure how putting someone in—for instance—YoRHa fending legs (which are underwear and a pair of stocking tops) along with the Forgiven chest piece (which does not cover below the waist in the front) or even just being in a complete set of Shisui fending gear is 'better for immersion' with a tank, for those who just want glamour stripped away (rather than replaced with a specific job set).

Moreover, there's probably other suggestions for (and objections to) the feature that I'm missing; as mentioned in the beginning of the post, these lists were just off the top of my head.

And in the end, the entire discussion is argued from an emotional base, and people will obviously be put on the defensive. Each side feels that they're clearly in the right and the other side is being unreasonable and selfish—and both sides are not hesitant to call out the other side as being so. Which puts each side on the defensive and prone to lashing back out in response. And the issue is that neither side is going to yield because neither is objectively wrong, even if for every single person participating the other side is subjectively wrong.

Which means this conversation will never go anywhere productive, and as I write this I realize I'm probably just contributing to the 'sound and fury, signifying nothing' with my participation. So I think I'll let this stand as my final contribution and bow out.

So gg, and TYFT. (Thank You For Thread.) And perhaps we'll bump into each other in the game at some point.

(Hopefully if we do, I still have pants.)

[Krotoan]

I've never, ever in years of game and AFKing in hubs and I mean it, I never once in my gaming lifetime on any MMO witnessed an argument by people offended by a silly attire. I never read a single line of anybody being mad at someone doing silly gear or being offended by a Colibri Pink bridemaid dress on the world chat E V E R. People having fun together being silly with no other reason to have fun ?

And where did I say it was "offensive"? Someone posts a line specifically about intentionally making choices the OP specifically objects to AND placing themselves in common area AND mockingly states nothing can be done about it. Explain to me please how that's supposed to be taken any other way than petulance?


I have also never complained to anyone in-game about their appearance OR expected anyone to make accommodations based on my own choices that would make them change their own behavior. I also never will. However when an option is presented that requires no effort or change of behavior on someone elses part and solves even a minor problem I have with a game I play, I'll gladly speak up in support.

how about you stop being special snowflakes and have fun rather than being offended by what make MMO so special ?

And again, right back at you. How about you consider what makes a video game environment so special such as the ability for each player to modify their own experience without affecting anyone elses and not get so offended at someones request to customize?

Maybe you have more trust in people then I do.. but I made the same comment a while back and while yes.. thats a jump. I don't think it's THAT much of a jump. Again... we already seen people ask this in this very thread. Yes anyone with logic behind them and whatnot would not make this claim. But we're not talking about those people. We're talking about the other 98% of the human race here. So no.. I don't trust people to not make that jump.. matter of fact. I fully expect it.

I don't think I've seen a serious reply asking for racial purity in the whole 150 pages (and I've read nearly all of it). There were jokes and some people saying it as a counter argument to try and demonize those who are asking for the feature but nobody who actually is asking for the option seriously suggested having a "all white hume (or whatever)" option. I won't deny that out there, there is SOMEONE who wants this. I've yet to see someone brave (or dumb) enough to actually support or announce that request though. People MIGHT want it, but the idea that it would gain traction is pretty farfetched.

For another example... look at the holy thread for people doing exactly that. " Oh no.. I can't spam holy in someone's face all day... I can get ban. Welp, might as well try to ban people doing their moves in a dungeon. Or try to ban bards, or any other insane thing here missing all the context."

This is called "being vindictive". "If I can't do this obnoxious thing I'm gonna take this ruling to it's most ludicrous extreme and see if I can't make others suffer for my limitation". This is what children or immature people do.