Tenacity

[ColdGuy]

Except... it isn't. That extra defense amounts to nothing. Like I said earlier, your healers will follow the exact same healing pattern they have already mapped out regardless of how much Tenacity you stack. This, in turn, makes Tenacity pointless because it does not add anything. Determination is also the wrong comparison to make as only Warrior cares about it. All other tanks want Direct Hit, which pushes the gap between damage and the passive mitigation Tenacity offers even further apart.

Put simply, mitigation needs to be valuable to be considered worthless. If Shiva's autos do 30k to a Determination/Direct Hit melded tank and 2.6k to a Tenacity melded one. Who cares? You'll never even notice it.

To notice a change in things that are happening, first of all you need to look for the change that was made, second you need to really invest into the stat that's making the difference, if you don't care and don't do the content that really puts every point of side stats you have to the test, then who cares, meld whatever you're told and go.

The difference is always going to be minimal, in percentages, so if you're not interested in discussing very small percentages, there's no point in discussing side stats at all. As far as I'm concerned the difference i saw from doing Tenacity in TEA was that i required 2 less single target heals in P2, where the difference i see right now from using Skillspeed in E7S is that i get to cast 9 more Bloodspillers than the top DRK at the time.

But I'll lend credence to your claim and share the set of gear that maximizes Crit, then a set of gear that maximizes DH:

Crit -> DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0G
DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0K

Now we see that, in the Crit gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 3.5% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.
And on the purely DH gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 2.7% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.

So taking the Crit set, which should give the most DPS (again, in theory), we have a nice trade off, 3.5% more DPS at the loss of 5.6% passive damage mitigation, that's half a Reprisal except it's permanent.

Another virtue of non-RNG based sources of DPS is that it's more consistent, there's also that. Again, stop with the stigma, the stats are there, they have their uses, and in true spirit of FFXIV, you can resolve all content with any set of gear as long as it's the appropriate iLvl and it has materia in it.

[Deceptus]

There is no point in doing that, Determination is already a DPS only stat due to the way that gear is made, since Tank gear has no Direct Hit it means that all our extra materia slots are used on Direct Hit, which means that Determination is a no-go stat for Tanks as is. If you really want to push out damage, you go for damage stats which means Crit -> DH, since all Tank gear doesn't have DH, it means all of it can be filled with DH, so nothing ever goes to Determination.

Unless you're a Warrior and DH is really bad to meld. Or play all 4 tanks so you want to stay away from DH because you play warrior as well.

[ForteNightshade]

To notice a change in things that are happening, first of all you need to look for the change that was made, second you need to really invest into the stat that's making the difference, if you don't care and don't do the content that really puts every point of side stats you have to the test, then who cares, meld whatever you're told and go.

The difference is always going to be minimal, in percentages, so if you're not interested in discussing very small percentages, there's no point in discussing side stats at all. As far as I'm concerned the difference i saw from doing Tenacity in TEA was that i required 2 less single target heals in P2, where the difference i see right now from using Skillspeed in E7S is that i get to cast 9 more Bloodspillers than the top DRK at the time.

But I'll lend credence to your claim and share the set of gear that maximizes Crit, then a set of gear that maximizes DH:

Crit -> DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0G
DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0K

Now we see that, in the Crit gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 3.5% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.
And on the purely DH gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 2.7% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.

So taking the Crit set, which should give the most DPS (again, in theory), we have a nice trade off, 3.5% more DPS at the loss of 5.6% passive damage mitigation, that's half a Reprisal except it's permanent.

Another virtue of non-RNG based sources of DPS is that it's more consistent, there's also that. Again, stop with the stigma, the stats are there, they have their uses, and in true spirit of FFXIV, you can resolve all content with any set of gear as long as it's the appropriate iLvl and it has materia in it.

Then you're mitigation was misplaced. I have cleared TEA and neither tank ran Tenacity. In fact, virtually no tanks use it even for Ultimate. If it were valuable enough to make a difference people would consider it more, especially during Ultimate. They don't. Hence why it's widely considered second rate at most. I have seen the numbers before and it speaks volumes that people still don't remotely consider Tenacity. Why is that? Because the passive mitigation it provides is so minuscule, it isn't worth melding over Determination or Direct Hit. If you prefer to meld it, well, Tenacity is better than nothing. But that's about it.

Saying you can clear any content is a cop out response. I could meld literally nothing and still clear without a single problem. That does not make Tenacity suddenly better nor desirable. The problem remains that until Tenacity provides a more noticeable benefit or Direct Hit is no longer an option for tanks, it simply lacks a purpose beyond being the cautious "feels safer" stat.

[ReiMakoto]

To notice a change in things that are happening, first of all you need to look for the change that was made, second you need to really invest into the stat that's making the difference, if you don't care and don't do the content that really puts every point of side stats you have to the test, then who cares, meld whatever you're told and go.

The difference is always going to be minimal, in percentages, so if you're not interested in discussing very small percentages, there's no point in discussing side stats at all. As far as I'm concerned the difference i saw from doing Tenacity in TEA was that i required 2 less single target heals in P2, where the difference i see right now from using Skillspeed in E7S is that i get to cast 9 more Bloodspillers than the top DRK at the time.

But I'll lend credence to your claim and share the set of gear that maximizes Crit, then a set of gear that maximizes DH:

Crit -> DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0G
DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0K

Now we see that, in the Crit gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 3.5% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.
And on the purely DH gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 2.7% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.

So taking the Crit set, which should give the most DPS (again, in theory), we have a nice trade off, 3.5% more DPS at the loss of 5.6% passive damage mitigation, that's half a Reprisal except it's permanent.

Another virtue of non-RNG based sources of DPS is that it's more consistent, there's also that. Again, stop with the stigma, the stats are there, they have their uses, and in true spirit of FFXIV, you can resolve all content with any set of gear as long as it's the appropriate iLvl and it has materia in it.

These % mitigation numbers youre quoting for ten arn't exactly right. Thats how much raw its adding however it has to interactive with the multiplicative buff stacking damage formula like everything else. For example of you had enough tenacity that it was adding a raw 3% passive mitiagtion, it would actually provide about 2.4% when stacking it multiplacatively with the passive 20% tanks get from the trait, and its value further decrease the more active mitigation you pop.

[Bsrking5]

I dont, because thats a waste of itemization options.

Similarly, I also dont want stats in 14 that are better designed for my EQ paladin than are for my 14 tanks.

Yet you're not willing for changes to be made to make good use of itemization or stats.

/Rant
They (SE) should have never kept increasing the jump potions levels. That negates any community progress in a expansion to get better and severely limits the overall difficulty. It's how in 80 content tanks don't turn bosses away from the rest of the group, it's how in 80 content you can run into players without necessary skills on their bars, it's why itemization can't be good and stats have to be nearly irrelevant.
/Rant

[Malmstrom]

The more I look at it, the more irritating I find Tenacity to be.

For all intents and purposes it should be THE stat to meld as a tank, and yet it's frowned upon as hard as Piety on a WHM, and it feels wrong to me.

The idea that I can stack a stat so high to nearly double the amount or more than the base amount that is on my gear but it only provide 2-3% extra damage reduction maybe is pitiful.

I WANT to use it. I want it to be a good stat to use. Doesn't have to be the best, but it shouldn't be considered one of the worst.

[Deceptus]

The more I look at it, the more irritating I find Tenacity to be.

For all intents and purposes it should be THE stat to meld as a tank, and yet it's frowned upon as hard as Piety on a WHM, and it feels wrong to me.

The idea that I can stack a stat so high to nearly double the amount or more than the base amount that is on my gear but it only provide 2-3% extra damage reduction maybe is pitiful.

I WANT to use it. I want it to be a good stat to use. Doesn't have to be the best, but it shouldn't be considered one of the worst.

I feel the exact same way and it's on SE to itemize it properly so that it's valuable and so far they haven't. But Parry was the exact same before they changed it to Tenacity, widely avoided because it was essentially worthless.

[Seraphor]

The more I look at it, the more irritating I find Tenacity to be.

For all intents and purposes it should be THE stat to meld as a tank, and yet it's frowned upon as hard as Piety on a WHM, and it feels wrong to me.

The idea that I can stack a stat so high to nearly double the amount or more than the base amount that is on my gear but it only provide 2-3% extra damage reduction maybe is pitiful.

I WANT to use it. I want it to be a good stat to use. Doesn't have to be the best, but it shouldn't be considered one of the worst.

The thing is, in high end play, where everyone is playing their job as well as they can, people are either dying to messing up mechsnics, in which case your melds aren't going to matter at all, or they're playing right at the thin edge of the balance knife where tanks mitigation and healer output is just not quite enough to cope with the damage, in which case that extra 3% really does matter, and can mean the difference between life and death.
So either melds don't matter at all, or they're crucial, and which it is is going to change from moment to moment.

3% isn't something to be sniffed at though. That's roughly comparable to any of the tanks defensive cooldowns. Which on average tend to work out at 10% damage reduction at 30% uptime.
Sure, damage spikes mostly invalidate this, but when the damage is coming little and often, such as trash pulls in dungeons, or event some odd tank busters or healer checks in some high end fights, that 3% can be useful.

So I'd say at the two ends of the spectrum, totally casual, and top performing world firsts at low or less than ideal ilvl, Tenacity can be quite useful.
It's the middle ground, where damage taken isn't as much an issue as damage dealt, that it's pointless.

[Ultimatecalibur]

These % mitigation numbers youre quoting for ten arn't exactly right. Thats how much raw its adding however it has to interactive with the multiplicative buff stacking damage formula like everything else. For example of you had enough tenacity that it was adding a raw 3% passive mitiagtion, it would actually provide about 2.4% when stacking it multiplacatively with the passive 20% tanks get from the trait, and its value further decrease the more active mitigation you pop.

Uh... you are a bit wrong here. The diminishing returns you are describing here are only relative to the damage healers and dps would take. When comparing the damage taken between tanks, the 20% damage reduction from Tank Mastery is meaningless. A tankbuster that deals 150k damage without any additional mitigation from buffs or Tenacity is a 150k tankbuster on all 4 tanks.

The mitigation from Tenacity is always applied; so the mitigation that experiences diminishing returns is actually that from the cooldowns. The max Tenacity in 5.2 is 3845 at i500 which gives a .8975 damage taken multiplier.

The idea that I can stack a stat so high to nearly double the amount or more than the base amount that is on my gear but it only provide 2-3% extra damage reduction maybe is pitiful.

At ~i500 differences between minimum and max Tenacity should be pretty noticeable.

A tomestone set has 2028 Tenacity at base (.951 damage taken multiplier) which can be increased to 2954 Tenacity (.922 damage taken, a 3.1% decrease in damage taken) with melds and food.
Mixing Tomestone gear with Edenchoir gear for minimum Tenacity gives 580 Tenacity (.994 multiplier)
Mixing Tomestone gear with Edenchoir gear for max Tenacity gives 2872 Tenacity at base (.925 damage taken multiplier) which can be increase to 3845Tenacity (.8975 damage taken, a 3.0% decrease in damage taken) with melds and foods.

The difference between minimum and maximum mitigation is pretty big this tier with a 9.8% difference in damage taken.

[ColdGuy]

Then you're mitigation was misplaced. I have cleared TEA and neither tank ran Tenacity. In fact, virtually no tanks use it even for Ultimate. If it were valuable enough to make a difference people would consider it more, especially during Ultimate. They don't. Hence why it's widely considered second rate at most. I have seen the numbers before and it speaks volumes that people still don't remotely consider Tenacity. Why is that? Because the passive mitigation it provides is so minuscule, it isn't worth melding over Determination or Direct Hit. If you prefer to meld it, well, Tenacity is better than nothing. But that's about it.

Saying you can clear any content is a cop out response. I could meld literally nothing and still clear without a single problem. That does not make Tenacity suddenly better nor desirable. The problem remains that until Tenacity provides a more noticeable benefit or Direct Hit is no longer an option for tanks, it simply lacks a purpose beyond being the cautious "feels safer" stat.

It seems your gripe is mostly with content design then, the reason Tenacity isn't necessary is because content is designed to have certain damage windows, so as long as cooldowns are being used properly you'll never need the extra passive mitigation, which is the reason we are able to go full Crit/DH and still beat all content (i too have cleared TEA with full Crit/DH melds).

I will never claim Tenacity to be better than Crit/DH, since again, player skill will always trump any melds you have, and proper use of CDs is called player skill, however to say Tenacity is undesirable is not right, it might not be desirable to you because you'd rather have the damage output from Crit/DH and rely on your own skill to mitigate damage, however for others it might not be the case, they might choose to play it on the safe side and rely more on damage dealers to do their part, which is completely fine seeing how Tank DPS is for the most part irrelevant at the moment.

These % mitigation numbers youre quoting for ten arn't exactly right. Thats how much raw its adding however it has to interactive with the multiplicative buff stacking damage formula like everything else. For example of you had enough tenacity that it was adding a raw 3% passive mitiagtion, it would actually provide about 2.4% when stacking it multiplacatively with the passive 20% tanks get from the trait, and its value further decrease the more active mitigation you pop.

Yes, i can only compare raw numbers.

You guys seem to be missing the point of the stat, damage mitigation will always be something you use to "play it safe", to give your group more breathing room, specially something that gives passive mitigation, if you're playing at a skill level that doesn't require it, then it simply isn't necessary.

Back when it was Parry materia it could be called worthless, not only did you lose a lot of damage from not melding anything else, you also didn't get much mitigation, so there was no point whatsoever in getting that materia, however that changed going into Tenacity, now you get guaranteed damage and guaranteed mitigation, which is the entire point of the stat, it's working as intended, if it were even slightly better (again, small percentages), it'd just tower over other stats and then we'd be looking at making other stats better.

So the fact remains, want damage? Meld Crit/DH, want mitigation? Meld Tenacity. Who wants to meld damage? Players capable of relying on player skill for mitigation, who wants the extra mitigation? Newer players or those unsure of their ability to mitigate properly. Not everything is for everyone, but the impact that Tenacity CAN have is absolutely undeniable, an additional ~6% passive mitigation is quite good (again, small percentages make for small changes but that's what we're discussing).