Tenacity

[ReiMakoto]

Uh... you are a bit wrong here. The diminishing returns you are describing here are only relative to the damage healers and dps would take. When comparing the damage taken between tanks, the 20% damage reduction from Tank Mastery is meaningless. A tankbuster that deals 150k damage without any additional mitigation from buffs or Tenacity is a 150k tankbuster on all 4 tanks.

The mitigation from Tenacity is always applied; so the mitigation that experiences diminishing returns is actually that from the cooldowns. The max Tenacity in 5.2 is 3845 at i500 which gives a .8975 damage taken multiplier.

Im not a bit wrong here, the 20% from the trait is still present in the damage formula and is interacting with tenacity always http://allaganstudies.akhmorning.com/guide/damage/, so it will suffer the same diminishing retuns as any other mitigation buff as they are all multiplied together.

Think of it like this in Stormblood as a simplified example (i.e. not taking into account all the other variables which would make ten even smaller)

Scenario A): Tank in no tank stance with 5% tencacity mitigation takes a hit that would do 50k

50000*0.95= 47500

Scenario B): The same tank in tank stance

50000*0.8*0.95 = 38000, or this to say because of diminishing returns tencacity only provided 4% not its "raw" 5%.

We now exist in a perpetual scenario B as of ShB where the tank stance defence buff is always active, so is always interacting with any buffs you use, tenacity or otherwise

[Deceptus]

At ~i500 differences between minimum and max Tenacity should be pretty noticeable.

A tomestone set has 2028 Tenacity at base (.951 damage taken multiplier) which can be increased to 2954 Tenacity (.922 damage taken, a 3.1% decrease in damage taken) with melds and food.
Mixing Tomestone gear with Edenchoir gear for minimum Tenacity gives 580 Tenacity (.994 multiplier)
Mixing Tomestone gear with Edenchoir gear for max Tenacity gives 2872 Tenacity at base (.925 damage taken multiplier) which can be increase to 3845Tenacity (.8975 damage taken, a 3.0% decrease in damage taken) with melds and foods.

The difference between minimum and maximum mitigation is pretty big this tier with a 9.8% difference in damage taken.

And that is essentially a permanent Reprisal debuff on the mobs.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Im not a bit wrong here, the 20% from the trait is still present in the damage formula and is interacting with tenacity always http://allaganstudies.akhmorning.com/guide/damage/, so it will suffer the same diminishing retuns as any other mitigation buff as they are all multiplied together.

We now exist in a perpetual scenario B as of ShB where the tank stance defence buff is always active, so is always interacting with any buffs you use, tenacity or otherwise

While the mitigation from tank mastery is calculated in game the problem is your frame of reference. Going off of how much damage non-tanks take is a very bad one as Tankbusters are all calculated based on the damage tanks would take, not how much the dps or healers would take from one.

Tankbuster base damage is likely calculated on the devs end by taking the expected hp of the tank and then multiplying the damage dealt by 1.25. This means a 50k tankbuster is actual a 62.5k attack but was designed to be a 50k attack.

Mitigation is applicable based on the following order:

1. Base damage - The actual potency of the Attack (requires a naked dps/healer taking the hit to see)
2. Tank Mastery - For all Tanks this is a .80 multiplier. The effective base potency taken by the Tanks of a certain ilevel.
3. Defense/Magic Defense - Mitigation gained from Gear ilevel. (Only way to actually see this mitigation is to take the attack naked and compare it to taking the attack in your gear)
4. Tenacity - First actual variable mitigation. At i500 this will be a multiplier between .994 and .8975.
5. Block/Parry - RNG procs that will apply a .80 multiplier to all non-Shadow damage (Block) or a .85 multiplier to physical damage (Parry). Block has priority over Parry so any increased mitigation from Block will diminish the mitigation gained from Parry. Paladin and Gunbreaker can influence the proc rate of these.
6. Cool down 1 - first cooldown used
7. ...
8. Cool down N - last cooldown used

Going from 1 to 8 might show the total mitigation achieved by the tanks in comparison to the dps and healers but that information contains extraneous information that is not useful to the comparison (1 through 3 will be the same for all tanks for the same ilevel which renders them moot). Using them is in effect an attempt to pad out the mitigation to make Tenacity's benefit look inferior to its actual in play benefit. 3 to 8 is where the relevant Player controllable mitigation is happening.

And that is essentially a permanent Reprisal debuff on the mobs.

Pretty much and it will likely only get better next tier with 5.4.

Much of the problem with Tenacity in StB was that the amounts required to get anything close to a relevant amount of mitigation was close to impossible.

[Seraphor]

The more I look at it, the more irritating I find Tenacity to be.

For all intents and purposes it should be THE stat to meld as a tank, and yet it's frowned upon as hard as Piety on a WHM, and it feels wrong to me.

The idea that I can stack a stat so high to nearly double the amount or more than the base amount that is on my gear but it only provide 2-3% extra damage reduction maybe is pitiful.

I WANT to use it. I want it to be a good stat to use. Doesn't have to be the best, but it shouldn't be considered one of the worst.

The thing is, in high end play, where everyone is playing their job as well as they can, people are either dying to messing up mechsnics, in which case your melds aren't going to matter at all, or they're playing right at the thin edge of the balance knife where tanks mitigation and healer output is just not quite enough to cope with the damage, in which case that extra 3% really does matter, and can mean the difference between life and death.
So either melds don't matter at all, or they're crucial, and which it is is going to change from moment to moment.

3% isn't something to be sniffed at though. That's roughly comparable to any of the tanks defensive cooldowns. Which on average tend to work out at 10% damage reduction at 30% uptime.
Sure, damage spikes mostly invalidate this, but when the damage is coming little and often, such as trash pulls in dungeons, or event some odd tank busters or healer checks in some high end fights, that 3% can be useful.

So I'd say at the two ends of the spectrum, totally casual, and top performing world firsts at low or less than ideal ilvl, Tenacity can be quite useful.
It's the middle ground, where damage taken isn't as much an issue as damage dealt, that it's pointless.

[Barraind]

Yet you're not willing for changes to be made to make good use of itemization or stats.

You should learn how to comprehend what you read and not just word-vomit nonsense.

[NekoHina]

It all depends on whether you are building a tank that is a dps or a tank that can survive. A tanks job is to be the punching bag that can take the hits while the dps burn down the enemies. All too often these days, tanks want to be the ones in there doing the most damage. I cannot speak as much for the other tanking jobs as I can for PLD (because my partner is PLD), but he has an almost full Tenacity build and can survive waaaayyyy longer than other tanks that I ever try to heal. Even tanks with slightly higher armor levels seem squishy in comparison. And he still has plenty of dps output to properly contribute to the group. Not every job is a full on DPS job in this game. So when used properly, tenacity can be a huge boon to tanks and their survival.

[Renato]

All too often these days, tanks want to be the ones in there doing the most damage.

This is the problem with FFXIV as a whole. This issue has been constantly brought up since Tenacity was introduced but the rebuttal is always the fact that you don't need more defense if you have more DPS. More DPS means that you can burn the enemy down quicker to the point where surviving isn't that big of an issue. This is why CRIT and DH (even though thats a DPS stat) are always pushed for tank classes oustide of the Warrior. Being a tank main, I've always hated this because if I wanted to play a DPS job, I would and it reduces the options to make a somewhat unique build in a game where the tanks are already very similar to one another. Some healers are pissed because they actually have to to what the job is intended for and heal more opposed to doing DPS...DPS is king in FFXIV.

Honestly, and I know people will disagree with me, I feel like DH shouldn't useable by any jobs other than DPS just like Tenacity is strictly a tank stat and Piety is a healer stat. I also feel like DET and TEN should hold a bit more weight.

[Riardon]

Just remove everything all stats and all skills and leave 1 skill only.
The glamours and RP is the real end game that matters after all.

[Fynlar]

Isn't Ruby EX locked at il470? Therefor would it not be impossible to que into the duty? Normal is il455, EX is il470...

Premade parties ignore ilvl and role requirements.

[Lersayil]

Tenacity could do with a bit of an overhaul. Or at the very least a bit of rebalancing. Looks good on paper, but the defensive side is worthless in 90% of all situations, so even if the dps boost is minor, people just default to DH / crit.