Tenacity

[Deceptus]

Tenacity is honestly relatively easy to fix.

Remove determination from tanks, make it a healer only stat. A stat that increases healing by a small amount.

Make tenacity increase healing RECEIVED. There is ZERO reason for a tank stat to increase healing they do to themselves especially when most healing modifiers dont affect Abilities.

After that, it's just adjusting the numbers. Simple.

[RyuDragnier]

Is it time to rework / remove this stat like they did with Parry?

DH / CRIT being the best for everything all the time is annoying.

You could just ask them to make DH a DPS only stat, so healers and tanks would be unable to use it.

[Seraphor]

Tenacity is honestly relatively easy to fix.

Remove determination from tanks, make it a healer only stat.

Make tenacity increase healing RECEIVED. There is ZERO reason for a tank stat to increase healing they do to themselves especially when most healing modifiers dont affect Abilities.

After that, it's just adjusting the numbers. Simple.

I'd rather make Determination a DPS only stat, and rework Piety like Tenacity. But you're right about Tenacity.

[Barraind]

Why would you want many choices but only one fits every class as best in every situation?

I dont, because thats a waste of itemization options.

Similarly, I also dont want stats in 14 that are better designed for my EQ paladin than are for my 14 tanks.

[deadman1204]

Or they could make the mitigation gained from it more impactful. However it would need to be noticeable outside of someone staring at a spreadsheet before people would start actively considering it as a focus for gear and melds. In the end currently there just feels to be too many players with the "But my DPS" mentality. They'd happily trade 10-20% extra damage mitigation if it meant they did 10 more DPS as a tank then probably blame the healer if they get 1 shotted..

This is the crux of the problem. EVERYTHING things getting 5 more dps is worth more than the entire healer dps contribution of the fight.

[ColdGuy]

I did full Tenacity build for TEA, the difference is extremely noticeable, and currently am doing Savage with a GCD of 2.21, there's nothing wrong with either stat, since in the end it's mostly player skill that matters.

Just don't half-ass it.

EDIT: Also just so everyone is aware, there's no way that Tenacity can be made better without it turning into the ONLY stat, if Tenacity suddenly gave more DPS than Determination, then Determination is useless, right now the balance is in being able to get around 7% more PASSIVE mitigation, with some damage on the side, which is great, but if suddenly Tenacity gave the same damage as Determination, and still had the damage mitigation side, it'd make Determination useless.

Same applies to any other stat, if Tenacity gave a better % damage increase than Critical, then Critical is useless, if it have a better % damage increase than Direct Hit, then Direct Hit is useless, there's no winning here, making Tenacity better does not increase build diversity, it kills it.

[Seraphor]

I did full Tenacity build for TEA, the difference is extremely noticeable, and currently am doing Savage with a GCD of 2.21, there's nothing wrong with either stat, since in the end it's mostly player skill that matters.

Just don't half-ass it.

EDIT: Also just so everyone is aware, there's no way that Tenacity can be made better without it turning into the ONLY stat, if Tenacity suddenly gave more DPS than Determination, then Determination is useless, right now the balance is in being able to get around 7% more PASSIVE mitigation, with some damage on the side, which is great, but if suddenly Tenacity gave the same damage as Determination, and still had the damage mitigation side, it'd make Determination useless.

Same applies to any other stat, if Tenacity gave a better % damage increase than Critical, then Critical is useless, if it have a better % damage increase than Direct Hit, then Direct Hit is useless, there's no winning here, making Tenacity better does not increase build diversity, it kills it.

As has been said, make Determination useless for Tanks, make it a dps only materia.

That way, Tanks still have a choice between balancing Tenacity against Crit/DH, but Tenacity becomes meaningful. Wouldn't even need to change it in any way.
Determination is always the last resort stat for high damage builds anyway.

[Kewitt]

Just kill off meds at this point there is so much at this point it's kind of pointless, everyone can max stat gear.

Or atleast kill it off on non crafted gear all together.

[ColdGuy]

As has been said, make Determination useless for Tanks, make it a dps only materia.

That way, Tanks still have a choice between balancing Tenacity against Crit/DH, but Tenacity becomes meaningful. Wouldn't even need to change it in any way.
Determination is always the last resort stat for high damage builds anyway.

There is no point in doing that, Determination is already a DPS only stat due to the way that gear is made, since Tank gear has no Direct Hit it means that all our extra materia slots are used on Direct Hit, which means that Determination is a no-go stat for Tanks as is. If you really want to push out damage, you go for damage stats which means Crit -> DH, since all Tank gear doesn't have DH, it means all of it can be filled with DH, so nothing ever goes to Determination.

Now, if you were to choose between Determination or Tenacity, then it's even more notorious that Tenacity IS the better option for Tanks already. To test this on paper I made the following sets of crafted gear:

Determination -> Tenacity: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CDZH
Tenacity -> Determination: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CDZJ

With Determination as our main stat we get an added 17.85% damage, and 6.13% added passive mitigation.
With Tenacity as our main stat we get an added 17.32% damage, and 9.39% added passive mitigation.
(These numbers are from the stat weights done a while back on expansion release)


So as far as Tanks are concerned, 3% additional PASSIVE mitigation is a lot more valuable than 0.5% added damage, specially since Tank damage isn't as high as in other expansions, the trade-off is clear and it's in favor of Tenacity.
EDIT: I should add that the total difference, ON PAPER, is 0.1% DPS being traded for 3% Mitigation.

Anyways the difference between stacking one stat or the other is small as hell, who cares, don't let the stigma get you.

[ForteNightshade]

So as far as Tanks are concerned, 3% additional PASSIVE mitigation is a lot more valuable than 0.5% added damage, specially since Tank damage isn't as high as in other expansions, the trade-off is clear and it's in favor of Tenacity.

Except... it isn't. That extra defense amounts to nothing. Like I said earlier, your healers will follow the exact same healing pattern they have already mapped out regardless of how much Tenacity you stack. This, in turn, makes Tenacity pointless because it does not add anything. Determination is also the wrong comparison to make as only Warrior cares about it. All other tanks want Direct Hit, which pushes the gap between damage and the passive mitigation Tenacity offers even further apart.

Put simply, mitigation needs to be valuable to be considered worthless. If Shiva's autos do 30k to a Determination/Direct Hit melded tank and 2.6k to a Tenacity melded one. Who cares? You'll never even notice it.