One shot mechanics in Normal Raids

[Stanelis]

I was expecting this thread to pop up because E7, while a very cool fight even in normal (and I haven 't had any difficulty nor failed the mechanic), is poorly designed for party play.

Indeed, in order for the boss to proceed smoothly, it requires most players in the group to actually understand the mechanic. While you can explain stuff, sadly, some people lack the intellect or are simply too slow to understand what stuff is about in P2, even after countless tries and even after lengthily explanations. When those people are the healers and or the people with the BR, there is no way your group can clear. Even when the people who understand the mechanic can BR, they spend most of their time raising the same people during the fight and it becomes really bumpy.

What SE needs is to stop designing fights in entry level difficulty tier such as the whole team must have homogeneous skill level. While it is (kinda) fine for organized play (even though I don't really agree), it isn't in PuG where you cannot control who will join your group. You need to have room in the party for good players who will teach players and players that are less competent or learning. Group content should be about the group communicating and play as a team to complete the content, not 8 distinct individuals having to each jump on their own in hoops and being a hindrance should they fail (basically what E7 is during gate + light/dark debuff mechanic).

[tdb]

What SE needs is to stop designing fights in entry level difficulty tier such as the whole team must have homogeneous skill level. While it is (kinda) fine for organized play (even though I don't really agree), it isn't in PuG where you cannot control who will join your group. You need to have room in the party for good players who will teach players and players that are less competent or learning. Group content should be about the group communicating and play as a team to complete the content, not 8 distinct individuals having to each jump on their own in hoops and being a hindrance should they fail (basically what E7 is during gate + light/dark debuff mechanic).

But that's how it already works. I did E7 a couple of hours ago, and while the group wiped three times, each time I gave instructions on what to do with that mechanic and each time people did better. Eventually we succeeded. It's just that every once in a while there's a group with a sufficient concentration of badness that the duty cannot be completed. In such cases it's best to just abandon and try again with a new group. It's impossible to design content so that any group, no matter how inept, can pass it, while simultaneously maintaining even a modicum of interest.

[Stanelis]

But that's how it already works. I did E7 a couple of hours ago, and while the group wiped three times, each time I gave instructions on what to do with that mechanic and each time people did better. Eventually we succeeded. It's just that every once in a while there's a group with a sufficient concentration of badness that the duty cannot be completed. In such cases it's best to just abandon and try again with a new group. It's impossible to design content so that any group, no matter how inept, can pass it, while simultaneously maintaining even a modicum of interest.

That s basically my point here, the solution to the problem shouldn't bbe to give up on the group and try again while hoping the people who can't adjust are "weeded out". Because it is how it is in E7, people who aren't fast enough to pick on thing will never get it.

Also, yes, they can design content where anyone can fit if there are different roles in the group (eg not making everyone handle the same mechanic at the same time, as it is the case in E7). When everything was about wow raiding in 2006-2008, endgame raids where specifically designed so the players had complete control on who did handle specific mechanics during the encounter (or at least that not everybody had to deal with X mechanic at the same moment). People who were learning could observe somebody who knew the mechanic so they could learn how it was done and people could actually coach players on how to handle a specific mechanic. Kael Thas in tempest keep comes to mind with this specific design, where a lot of players had to deal with specific (different) stuff.

Furthermore, my point isn't that all the content should be doable at any skill level, but that raids in story mode specifically designed for people with low skill level definitely should.

[linay]

raids in story mode specifically designed for people with low skill level definitely should.

Who said it's designed for people with low skill level? Lower skill level than what is needed for Savage, certainly, but optional content at max level is not necessarily for low skill level.

It's that kind of attitude that makes LFR in WoW harder than it needs to be when people underestimate its difficulty and ignore mechanics, causing wipes and then people just leave to be carried by the next party instead of learning the fight.

[Tsukino]

This is not a one-shot mechanic. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread.

A one-shot mechanic will kill you (everyone) in one hit. Not only have I never seen everyone die to this at once, I also got smacked with one of the effects (as a DD not a tank) but not both and easily got healed up by other people and didn't die. That is, at the very least, a mechanic that requires two "shots" to do you in.

One-shot mechanics in other fights are like failing Landslides on Titan - you mess up the mechanic and you fall off the arena, knocking you out in one hit, one failure on your part.

[Gemina]

This is not a one-shot mechanic. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread.

A one-shot mechanic will kill you (everyone) in one hit. Not only have I never seen everyone die to this at once, I also got smacked with one of the effects (as a DD not a tank) but not both and easily got healed up by other people and didn't die. That is, at the very least, a mechanic that requires two "shots" to do you in.

One-shot mechanics in other fights are like failing Landslides on Titan - you mess up the mechanic and you fall off the arena, knocking you out in one hit, one failure on your part.

One shots only need to kill one player. A mechanic that wipes everyone is a reset. Either way, that mechanic will indeed one shot someone at the minimum ilv requirement, and it most certainly will if you have a vuln down debuff. It also causes knockback, and can toss you over the ledge. One shot.

[Tsukino]

One shots only need to kill one player. A mechanic that wipes everyone is a reset. Either way, that mechanic will indeed one shot someone at the minimum ilv requirement, and it most certainly will if you have a vuln down debuff. It also causes knockback, and can toss you over the ledge. One shot.

I probably should have been more clear with "everyone," maybe I meant "anyone?" I meant that even if you are a tank such a mechanic will still kill you, not that it has to wipe everyone at once.


I'm still pretty sure I've not been killed in one hit by this attack though. I have only been hit with a bunch of damage and received a Vulnerability Up stack, just as the OP is asking that it do instead.

[MomomiMomi]

I probably should have been more clear with "everyone," maybe I meant "anyone?" I meant that even if you are a tank such a mechanic will still kill you, not that it has to wipe everyone at once.


I'm still pretty sure I've not been killed in one hit by this attack though. I have only been hit with a bunch of damage and received a Vulnerability Up stack, just as the OP is asking that it do instead.

It was killing our tanks in one hit so I'm not sure how you were surviving it.


As for the thread... more challenge outside of savage/extreme is welcome by me. There isn't enough content that is between the difficulty of 24-man raids and Extremes.

[Elladie]

I was expecting this thread to pop up because E7, while a very cool fight even in normal (and I haven 't had any difficulty nor failed the mechanic), is poorly designed for party play.

Indeed, in order for the boss to proceed smoothly, it requires most players in the group to actually understand the mechanic. While you can explain stuff, sadly, some people lack the intellect or are simply too slow to understand what stuff is about in P2, even after countless tries and even after lengthily explanations. When those people are the healers and or the people with the BR, there is no way your group can clear. Even when the people who understand the mechanic can BR, they spend most of their time raising the same people during the fight and it becomes really bumpy.

What SE needs is to stop designing fights in entry level difficulty tier such as the whole team must have homogeneous skill level. While it is (kinda) fine for organized play (even though I don't really agree), it isn't in PuG where you cannot control who will join your group. You need to have room in the party for good players who will teach players and players that are less competent or learning. Group content should be about the group communicating and play as a team to complete the content, not 8 distinct individuals having to each jump on their own in hoops and being a hindrance should they fail (basically what E7 is during gate + light/dark debuff mechanic).

It's not a question of intellect or not understanding the mechanic, at least in my case. I have three university degrees, and I grasp the concept of what is happening very well. But I have directional dyslexia - I cannot process directional instructions - and this mechanic is almost impossible for me. I am unable to distinguish left from right or the cardinal points of the compass from each other, and trying to do this in a stressful situation scrambles my brain. Something like this - where I'm required to compute the correct place to stand based on information coming from (literally) two different directions is impossible for me. At least at the speed required in a raid battle. In RL I dread being asked for directions as I am unable to give these coherently, so I'm sure you can imagine how very hard this fight is for me.

I'm very lucky to have a group of friends to do stuff like this with, they understand my disability and are incredible patient. We can also communicate via voice which is a huge bonus.

My point is, don't assume someone is stupid because they're struggling. And doing this with a group you know and can communicate with via voice most definitely makes a huge difference. We still wiped several times while everyone else was figuring it out, but we did clear it within the allotted time

[tdb]

It's not a question of intellect or not understanding the mechanic, at least in my case. I have three university degrees, and I grasp the concept of what is happening very well. But I have directional dyslexia - I cannot process directional instructions - and this mechanic is almost impossible for me. I am unable to distinguish left from right or the cardinal points of the compass from each other, and trying to do this in a stressful situation scrambles my brain. Something like this - where I'm required to compute the correct place to stand based on information coming from (literally) two different directions is impossible for me. At least at the speed required in a raid battle. In RL I dread being asked for directions as I am unable to give these coherently, so I'm sure you can imagine how very hard this fight is for me.

Let me try to provide instructions which depend on directions as little as possible. When the mechanic starts, first look at which debuff you get, either dark or light. Then look at the boss. When the swarms appear, move in front of one that is the opposite color to your debuff. Now turn to look at the side with two portals (it's the opposite side from where the boss is). Take note of the color of the portal you are standing in front of, either red or blue. Finally turn to look at the side with four portals. Move sideways until you are standing in front of a portal which is the opposite color of the previous step. You are now standing in a spot where you can safely take the first two hits from the mechanic. The last hit will happen without any portals so just move in front of a swarm of the opposite color to your debuff.

I'm not sure exactly how bad your disability is, but if "sideways" proves problematic I can reformulate the explanation so that it only uses "towards <something>". The grid on the playfield may also prove useful.

Normal mode does not have an enrage, so feel free to stop using abilities so you can get a good look at what's happening.