Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Saccharin]

I had a poor sprout rogue in wow who got vote kicked in RFC for low dps because poor guy couldn't do anything with the 4 of us full heirloom melting mobs..

WoW is from NA/FFXIV from JP your laws =/= their laws.

And players who care about parsers will most likely use it so they won't stick with the eula and if they do it will be mostly because it's kinda annoying to setup.
If we put the SE stance on Third Party Tools away for a moment it's like saying it's unfair for people who don't use Recount/Skada/Details.

They nerfed heirlooms. Very rarely would anyone get kicked. I've messed up a fair few times as a healer and never got kicked.

WoW has to operate on what ever country they have a presence and so so SE to it doesn't change anything. If Japan dont allow anti-cheat system then dont have it in the Japanese client. SE have stated point blank that they dont know if players use it. So why would people not.

There's also a security issue: if you were to download a 'addon' for FF14 it's going to be an actual program so you could have the situation where you have people downloading something that may not be what it says. A LUA addon is pure text and you place it in a folder ans the game reads it. Id it as a malicious exe then it doesn't get loaded.

There's also the slippery slope that we now see. For arguments sake let's say that parsers are harmless but now we are seeing addons that go beyond that and affect the game like the markers. What's next, a rotation tool...

SE need to find a away to detect these addons and introduce their own minimal addon API. Parsers can be toxic yes but the current situation is much more toxic.

[SamSmoot]

The game still needs some way to show players how they're doing relative to others. I suggest a limited in-game private parser..
1. In open world or private instanced content, show DPS / heals/ whatever to the player and no one else. (Although, I'd like to see how someone else is doing on the dummies for comparison..

In group content, after the group is disbanded, show relative performance against others, with item levels, such as:
From first to last. No names, only shown after disband, so callouts would be nearly impossible, but players could still see if they need to improve:

Rank Ilevel Damage
1 675 5487412
2 450 3385414
3 300 3250015
4 301 1156842 (Highlight your score)
5 600 1500

Disallow inspection in groups so players can't cross reference item levels to names to harass them after the run.

In the example above:
#1,2: at ilevels 675 and 450 have good reason for being at the top of the list. You don't feel bad that their performance is better than yours.
#3: Item level is 150 below #2, but performance is nearly the same. That player is performing well.
#4: (Me) My item level is just one above #3, but I'm doing 1/3 the damage. I should seek out some way to improve myself other than better gear.
#5: Very high item level, but terrible performance. Lets me know that the DPS check failures weren't entirely my fault

This should probably be used only in raid-sized groups to allow comparisons between multiple tanks, healers, DPS, unless they could come up with some kind of universal performance metric and not just heals, damage, whatever.

I suppose they could also add a narcissist mode that always shows you at the top of the list..

[Penthea]

There's also the slippery slope that we now see. For arguments sake let's say that parsers are harmless but now we are seeing addons that go beyond that and affect the game like the markers. What's next, a rotation tool...

Rotation tools are/were (dunno if they're still around) in WoW. They didn't do the rotation for you, but they lit up the ability that you should use next. It's like how the combo system works in FF but it's for every ability, even if it's not part of a combo. Of course players who played without this assistance always played better but the point is the ability to use add-ons did result in some that literally enabled players to turn off their brain.

SE need to find a away to detect these addons and introduce their own minimal addon API. Parsers can be toxic yes but the current situation is much more toxic.

From what I understand SE can only detect something if it is sending information to the servers (for example, and add-on that would call out in chat if a person has a debuff would be sending information to the servers through the chat channel). If an add-on sends information only to the end user (the player's computer) then it can't be detected by an outside source, unless something that scans computers is used but that is illegal. This is why a lot of players get away with using add-ons as long as they're quiet about it. SE generally only catch them if they actually admit to it either by saying it in game or showing themselves using said add-on in something like a stream.

So in short, depending on how an add-on works, it may be impossible for SE to detect its use through legal means. So then SE take measures to make the add-ons less useful or useless. The current prime example being the incoming change to raid markers. By removing the ability to adjust them in combat, the add-on that automatically placed them during combat for players is rendered useless.

[Agarthas]

You're right. They do lead to toxicity, and I am thrilled that you and the team are adamant about keeping a meter out of the game. Thank you for your stalwart position on this matter.

yes thank you !

[QT_Melon]

It doesn't really help to find our flaws though. They are the tools I'm using usually since I'm not on PC, as you said it helps to give a rough idea of where we are at, but both aren't able to give us any answer to more specific questions. Yeah, it's just for a rough idea at the end, but that rough idea doesn't give us any accurate information to improve ourselves, especially since they don't point directly to our issues, and our issues can be anything. Sure, rotations are simple, it's mostly some basic logic and math, but sometimes there is still a bit more to it.

Yes, I already stated that in earlier parts of the thread. I stated that it's not perfect. I also stated that I'd like tools that let me know more about issues in what is going wrong (ie clipping or weaving) The problem is less the people that may be rather close or at least 80+% of defeating the dummy. The problem is that people want to bring up exceptionally lower end DPS . Then want to complain they can't show the parse.

We have a starting point where a majority of people can go on and utilize. Is it perfect? NO. Does it work for at least communicating the basic point of where they stand? Yes.

To be fair ACT itself doesn't tell this either. It's just numbers. Unless you have a plugin or use said data into an analysis site (NOT the logs site at face value and only look at colors), what you're doing wrong isn't apparent. In fact in cases with or without ACT that advanced information on HOW to improve still comes from other peers in this game.

[Wanzer]

Yeah, you are right, QT.

[EtherRose]

You know what's funny? Yoshi saying it leads to toxicity which is true but then they implement DPS race mechanics into the game. Like what. Lol. So when people keep wiping on the DPS race no one will know who is pulling their weight. But than again, people still use 3rd party parser's anyways.

[EaMett]

The game still needs some way to show players how they're doing relative to others. I suggest a limited in-game private parser..
1. In open world or private instanced content, show DPS / heals/ whatever to the player and no one else. (Although, I'd like to see how someone else is doing on the dummies for comparison..

In group content, after the group is disbanded, show relative performance against others, with item levels, such as:
From first to last. No names, only shown after disband, so callouts would be nearly impossible, but players could still see if they need to improve:

Rank Ilevel Damage
1 675 5487412
2 450 3385414
3 300 3250015
4 301 1156842 (Highlight your score)
5 600 1500

Disallow inspection in groups so players can't cross reference item levels to names to harass them after the run.

In the example above:
#1,2: at ilevels 675 and 450 have good reason for being at the top of the list. You don't feel bad that their performance is better than yours.
#3: Item level is 150 below #2, but performance is nearly the same. That player is performing well.
#4: (Me) My item level is just one above #3, but I'm doing 1/3 the damage. I should seek out some way to improve myself other than better gear.
#5: Very high item level, but terrible performance. Lets me know that the DPS check failures weren't entirely my fault

This should probably be used only in raid-sized groups to allow comparisons between multiple tanks, healers, DPS, unless they could come up with some kind of universal performance metric and not just heals, damage, whatever.

I suppose they could also add a narcissist mode that always shows you at the top of the list..

You don't need to go that far. Just parse all players and then at the end of a run give players their A-F grade in comparison to all historical runs of that content for their job. The player only sees their own score. If you get an F you can ask around and people will tell you you need better gear or maybe the gear is good but your rotation isn't etc.. Or you can decide not to do anything about it. Nobody needs to know.

[Divinemights]

You don't need to go that far. Just parse all players and then at the end of a run give players their A-F grade in comparison to all historical runs of that content for their job. The player only sees their own score. If you get an F you can ask around and people will tell you you need better gear or maybe the gear is good but your rotation isn't etc.. Or you can decide not to do anything about it. Nobody needs to know.

It seems you don’t get what yoship’s concern of increase toxicity.
This grade system can easily being exploited and narrow down to a certain target that prompt toxicity.

[EaMett]

It seems you don’t get what yoship’s concern of increase toxicity.
This grade system can easily being exploited and narrow down to a certain target that prompt toxicity.

Not if you only see your own grade? There's no way for others to know what you scored. The only thing that could happen is people asking to get screenshots of your grades when forming statics (and that will become standard) but at the same time the entire raiding scene would be a shitshow without some form of measuring stick. How would you even start forming a static of similarly skilled players without it. That's also why SE's stance on parsers is pretty lax.