Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

[LineageRazor]

(According to the game dialogue it doesn't seem like King Moggle Mog Tempered anyone either, even the Mogglesguard, but I've also always conceded that with Moogles, it's kind of hard to tell.)

While they never directly came out and said it, I came away from the Moggle Mog quests with the impression that the Mogsguard WERE tempered, and the other Moogles planned to remove them. Probably not kill them; Moogles seem too mild-mannered for that, in general, but quarantine them, at the very least. (And not too effectively, given that they were able to summon Mog EX.) Just my take on things.

The Sahagin Priest who summoned Leviathan was definitely not Tempered, but acted just as fanatically as their followers.

No need to be vague about gender. We know from both the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests, and some Ondo side quests, that surface dwellers rarely or never see Sahagin females. Every Sahagin we meet, including the Priest, is male.

People's musings here are just that - musings - so please let's try and be non-confrontational about how we respond to them. Most of us manage that very well, imo, but some individuals seem to want to beat folks over the head with the 'Hydaelyn is the BEST!' hammer

It's been my impression that the Black Knights are considerably more vocal than the White. And, honestly, they have to be, in order for their suspicions to not be dismissed out of hand. This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character. All of the "suspicious" behaviors she exhibits? The characters in-game have the same information that we do, and none of them have shown any signs of losing faith in Hydaelyn's goodness. Even Yoshi P is giving the players the side-eye for throwing Hy under the bus at the word of an Ascian, of all people.

The writers seriously do not seem to be trying to paint Hydaelyn as a morally grey character (let alone black). Characters in-game that are considered to be extraordinarily wise, such as Loisouix, believe in her benevolence, and for SE to turn around and pull a "twist" that reveals she's actually full of dark intentions would essentially be painting these characters as fools. I just don't see that as being in the cards.

[YianKutku]

While they never directly came out and said it, I came away from the Moggle Mog quests with the impression that the Mogsguard WERE tempered, and the other Moogles planned to remove them. Probably not kill them; Moogles seem too mild-mannered for that, in general, but quarantine them, at the very least. (And not too effectively, given that they were able to summon Mog EX.) Just my take on things.

The Thornmarch EX quest dialogue states that Moggle Mog was re-summoned out of spite, rather than because the Mogglesguard were now fanatical worshippers of a Primal. As in, Kuplo Kopp scolded them for summoning Moggle Mog the first time, and failed his Diplomacy check, so the Mogglesguard summoned Moggle Mog again.

Kuplo Kopp also said "just beat them up a little" rather than "they are beyond saving", which is different from what we know about dealing with Tempered individuals.

Having said that, I did mention that it's kind of difficult to tell, because for all we know being Tempered by Moggle Mog doesn't make you a fanatical worshipper, but just makes you even more bloody-minded and stubborn and contrarian. Which is exactly the state of mind that caused Thornmarch EX, so who knows.

[Lersayil]

...This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character...

Which, given the stories history of red herrings and subversion of expectations, should be suspicious to no one, ever. Even less so, since it wouldn't fit in with the overarching themes and messages they were pushing since ARR.

I don't think anyone expects for Hydaelyn to turn out to be secretly a total a-hole here. But given the current narrative, I don't think its that outlandish to think that she's not completely as good and benevolent as she's made out to be.

And discussing that and its implications is such great fun.

[Elladie]

It's been my impression that the Black Knights are considerably more vocal than the White. And, honestly, they have to be, in order for their suspicions to not be dismissed out of hand. This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character. All of the "suspicious" behaviors she exhibits? The characters in-game have the same information that we do, and none of them have shown any signs of losing faith in Hydaelyn's goodness. Even Yoshi P is giving the players the side-eye for throwing Hy under the bus at the word of an Ascian, of all people.

The writers seriously do not seem to be trying to paint Hydaelyn as a morally grey character (let alone black). Characters in-game that are considered to be extraordinarily wise, such as Loisouix, believe in her benevolence, and for SE to turn around and pull a "twist" that reveals she's actually full of dark intentions would essentially be painting these characters as fools. I just don't see that as being in the cards.

And you don't think calling people Black Knights isn't going to rub people up the wrong way? That seems to be aimed at causing offence. My apologies if you didn't intend it that way, but you should perhaps take more care how you phrase things. I do know how easy it is when things get heated to start hurling insults - I have done it myself - but it's rather egregious to do it in a response to a request for trying to keep a balanced perspective.

I don't believe anyone is arguing that Hydaelyn is evil. I'm certainly not. I don't think - in view of what we've recently learned - she has enough autonomy to have a moral position, she merely does what she's designed to do. Whatever that costs. Including shattering the star and everything on it into 14 pieces and hi-jacking Minfilia. To reiterate again, this is just my opinion. I don't agree the writers have gone out of their way to show Hydaelyn as not morally grey, I think they've been very careful to present her in such a way that the player can interpret her actions differently depending on perspective. I'm not blinkered enough to think my perspective is the only one, and I'm happy to discuss my thoughts cordially. But I'm getting tired of being demonised because I don't jump on the 'Hydaelyn is amazing train' right away.

There is plenty in the game to allow me to be suspicious of Hydaelyn's role. I don't think she's evil, I'm not saying the Ascians are right, I don't want to fall down and worship Zodiark. But I am not accepting Hydaelyn as an all seeing, all knowing, all wise Mother currently because that isn't how she's coming across to me in the story. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation; my point is that it's a valid one, and the writers have made sure it can come across as a valid one in their presentation of Hydaelyn

[MoofiaBossVal]

Given the time frame and number of successful calamities, I think its safe to state that even if the current WoL was around in previous eras in some form he / she must not have been very successful at their jobs (lack of shards?). If nothing else, the fact that it took 7-8 rejoinings for our counter-offensive against the Ascians to be successful, makes one question the validity or integrity of the original plan.

This idea overlook the times when the WoL did successfully thwart the Ascian's plan to cause a rejoining. The WoL's historical successes in doing so aren't obvious, because when the WoL stops a Rejoining from happening, it isn't recorded in history. We only know that the WoL failed seven times (eight times if you include the 13th becoming a Void of Darkness), and for obvious reasons those failures are the ones that stick out in history. It's very much a case of "Evil Only has to Win Once", in this case no matter how many times the WoL succeeds, the Ascians only need to succeed 14 times, and they have eternity to succeed those 14 times. Emet-Selch in ShB also seems to have a rather contentious history with the WoL, almost as if Emet had tried many times before to convince the WoL to understand his side.

[Lersayil]

This idea overlook the times when the WoL did successfully thwart the Ascian's plan to cause a rejoining. The WoL's historical successes in doing so aren't obvious, because when the WoL stops a Rejoining from happening, it isn't recorded in history. We only know that the WoL failed seven times (eight times if you include the 13th becoming a Void of Darkness), and for obvious reasons those failures are the ones that stick out in history. It's very much a case of "Evil Only has to Win Once", in this case no matter how many times the WoL succeeds, the Ascians only need to succeed 14 times, and they have eternity to succeed those 14 times. Emet-Selch in ShB also seems to have a rather contentious history with the WoL, almost as if Emet had tried many times before to convince the WoL to understand his side.

I admit, its possible both ways. I don't think we have any concrete information for either scenario. I think the most we have on the subject is Emet mentioning "others like us in every era", that fought his plans, but he never mentioned their fates or if any of them were ever successful at thwarting them.

[Cilia]

I'm very much inclined to think she's a construct with one program only - destroy Zodiark - and everything else is irrelevant.

Except that isn't Hydaelyn's purpose at all, according to Hythlodaeus' shade. His account of it (which is probably the closest thing we have to an unbiased account) is that she was created because some of the Ancients felt "enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark - that [the post-Terminus] world should belong to the new lives newly born" instead of those selfsame new lives being sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back those Ancients who sacrificed themselves to create and empower him. Simply put, she is the embodiment of the idea that the future should belong to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past. Her actions are bent toward that idea, but due to the power disparity between the two (Hydaelyn has, at most, 1/8 of Zodiark's full power) she had to sunder him to fulfill that directive. Unfortunately due to his status as "the will of the Star," that sundered the planet in the process; the rest is history. (Actually destroying Zodiark through force would likely have even more disastrous consequences.)

There may come a time when it's necessary to rise up against and depose Hydaelyn, Fate/Grand Order Babylonia style. Should such a time come I will have no objection to doing so, but shadiness with "The Word of the Mother" notwithstanding, nothing has suggested to me it will.

This idea overlook the times when the WoL did successfully thwart the Ascian's plan to cause a rejoining. The WoL's historical successes in doing so aren't obvious, because when the WoL stops a Rejoining from happening, it isn't recorded in history. We only know that the WoL failed seven times (eight times if you include the 13th becoming a Void of Darkness), and for obvious reasons those failures are the ones that stick out in history. It's very much a case of "Evil Only has to Win Once", in this case no matter how many times the WoL succeeds, the Ascians only need to succeed 14 times, and they have eternity to succeed those 14 times. Emet-Selch in ShB also seems to have a rather contentious history with the WoL, almost as if Emet had tried many times before to convince the WoL to understand his side.

The Sixth Astral Era (which constitutes most of recorded history) lasted ~1,200 years without known Ascian interference until Emet-Selch engineered the Garlean Empire. While it is impossible to verify, based on this it is unlikely Warriors of Light were active before Hydaelyn sounded the Echo after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. It is also unknown how often Warriors of Light were active in previous eras, but this sets a precedent of them not being active unless the Ascians' machinations are close to fruition.

Emet-Selch's alternating chumminess and enmity with the Warrior of Light probably stems from the heavy implication they were a close friend of his back in the days of Amaurot; having an old friend's reincarnation as your newfound direst foe would no doubt lead to such behavior.

[Lersayil]

Except that isn't Hydaelyn's purpose at all, according to Hythlodaeus' shade. His account of it (which is probably the closest thing we have to an unbiased account) is that she was created because some of the Ancients felt "enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark - that [the post-Terminus] world should belong to the new lives newly born" instead of those selfsame new lives being sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back those Ancients who sacrificed themselves to create and empower him. Simply put, she is the embodiment of the idea that the future should belong to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past. Her actions are bent toward that idea, but due to the power disparity between the two (Hydaelyn has, at most, 1/8 of Zodiark's full power) she had to sunder him to fulfill that directive. Unfortunately due to his status as "the will of the Star," that sundered the planet in the process; the rest is history. (Actually destroying Zodiark through force would likely have even more disastrous consequences.)

There is a void of information on that matter. We kinda know why she was summoned. But I don't think we have any idea what her concrete purpose and directive was (is) that the creators bestowed on her? I doubt she was just manifested as an ideal. Defeating something much stronger would imply some premeditation.

We're told creation magic worked by having a pretty good image of what you were creating. Unexpected things happened, but I think its unlikely that she came to be with dimension slicing powers by accident.

It's probably safe to assume that defeating Zodiark was always part of the plan. Not sure about the rest though. She sorta took up guard duty afterwards, trying to embody the ideals you mentioned? It might be her own will, nature, a design feature, or all of them. Either way an imperfect system, seeing how more than half the shards are gone.

[MikkoAkure]

The Sixth Astral Era (which constitutes most of recorded history) lasted ~1,200 years without known Ascian interference until Emet-Selch engineered the Garlean Empire. While it is impossible to verify, based on this it is unlikely Warriors of Light were active before Hydaelyn sounded the Echo after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. It is also unknown how often Warriors of Light were active in previous eras, but this sets a precedent of them not being active unless the Ascians' machinations are close to fruition.

Tenzen existed in the 6th Astral Era or thereabouts and he had the echo. He was also said to speak to Hydaelyn. I thought there was something about Koryu being related to ascians tomfoolery but I'm probably misremembering.

For previous eras, we're told that each era has had it's own Zodiac Braves, which seems to be the Ivalice region's name for Warriors of Light. It's unclear whether they mean era like everyone else means era or something else but there are always 12 at a time and there are 8 known. The only clue is that the first Zodiac Braves were led by Ajora several hundred years before Delita. Ajora ended up becoming a prophet of a new religion and summoned an extremely powerful primal after he toppled the bad empire so he was probably one of Hydaelyn's mistakes.

[Eloah]

No need to be vague about gender. We know from both the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests, and some Ondo side quests, that surface dwellers rarely or never see Sahagin females. Every Sahagin we meet, including the Priest, is male.

Did you just assume the priests gender? How dare you, maybe they identity as a jet plane, or a tractor, or maybe as a song upon the wind.

But, in all seriousness, did that comment need a reply? Their, while gender neutral, can be used even when the gender is known, sorta in an elevation sense. But even then, I'm betting the initial poster just forgot and used Their to be safe.

Also the "Their" in that statement could refer to both the Priest and/or Leviathan. And while the Priest's gender might be known Leviathan's could be up in the air, depending on who summons them. I guess you could say they might be gender... fluid, lol...

My trial ans subsequent execution will be a week from today. T.T