Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

[Lersayil]

You're trying to state that you're a rationalist.
But after several points shown that people act freely and without guidance from Hydaelyn you're showing a consistent tilt toward putting actions of those associated with her in a bad light. That's called bias.

If you think so, I either worded my posts poorly, or you misunderstood something.

You say "bad light". I say writing mistake, hypocrisy, or genuinely great setup for a moral relativist commentary. The fact that I argue, that something done by the heroes is morally questionable in principle isn't meant as criticism of characters. It might be if they move away from the current narrative, and move back to a black and white morality. But, until we keep rolling with the moral relativism theme, its actually a praise from me, if anything!

The only thing I am biased against really, is the story returning to a more simplistic morality after all this setup.

EDIT: to further break it down, what I am doing, is speculating how a character such as Hydaelyn, that so far has been characterized universally good, can fit into a narrative in which we are pushing, that good and evil is in the details, and in the eye of the beholder.

[Rannie]

@Crushnight, there was only 2 tribes the Oronir and the Dotharl that traveled south with Hien to help with the Doman Liberation (well per the EE Volume 2).

[MikkoAkure]

As for the passiveness of the blessing, are you sure? I sorta-kinda remember it having something to do with our immense aether reserves, but I might be mistaken on that. Aetherial manipulation being what it is, just having that aether pool is a vast power advantage. The echo might also affect our uncanny efficiency with job stones, though I admit this is pure speculation.

Shadowbringers muddied this point a bit with the revelation that we are more whole of a pre-sundered person than most people and are souls are more aetherically dense. Even without the benefit of the blessing or echo, we have more going on than everyone else and it’s likely that’s why we were chosen. Plus all the insinuation that we summoned Hydaelyn ourself and that every WoL throughout history and across the multiverse is us, over and over.

This revelation plus Emet admitting that he’s tempered kind of puts a damper on deeper, nuanced meanings to the story and people are citing moral relativism in a story that I believe is more black and white and is leans towards predestined fate.

[Lersayil]

Shadowbringers muddied this point a bit with the revelation that we are more whole of a pre-sundered person than most people and are souls are more aetherically dense. Even without the benefit of the blessing or echo, we have more going on than everyone else and it’s likely that’s why we were chosen. Plus all the insinuation that we summoned Hydaelyn ourself and that every WoL throughout history and across the multiverse is us, over and over.

This revelation plus Emet admitting that he’s tempered kind of puts a damper on deeper, nuanced meanings to the story and people are citing moral relativism in a story that I believe is more black and white and is leans towards predestined fate.

Given the time frame and number of successful calamities, I think its safe to state that even if the current WoL was around in previous eras in some form he / she must not have been very successful at their jobs (lack of shards?). If nothing else, the fact that it took 7-8 rejoinings for our counter-offensive against the Ascians to be successful, makes one question the validity or integrity of the original plan.

Recent revelations do muddy the waters a bit about what makes us special, but as far as we've been told by Y'shtola, post-Ardbert the WoLs soul didn't really change much from their pre-expansion selfs. With our extra shard, we did mend our souls, and got rid of the extra light aether, but other than that she did not note any other major changes (possibly she just cant see the difference?).

Combined with the fact that Emet did mock us for not being able to contain and control the amount of aether we've collected from the Wardens, I would *guess* that our natural aether reserves aren't expanding with rejoinings, only our free storage and ability to manipulate greater amounts.

As for morality, I can see that to be the case, and honestly I kiiind of fear it to be true? We've dabbled a bit in moral relativism with pre-ascian twist Garlean commentary and Heavenswards dragons. Clearly, we've been hitting the notes with ShB. Hell, Emet outright says it that one time. Feels like they are heading in a definitive direction. At this point dancing back into absolute moralities would feel like a 180, or at the very least would undermine some of the previous characters and narrative undertones. Its kind of a one way street once you start going down either way.

[Crushnight]

And to clarify, I have no bias against Hydaelyn or her actions. I'm just untrusting and cynical towards everything in general, until factually proven otherwise (at which point I might just become plain bitter, but thats another question).

I know I've been doing a decent amount of Hydelyn defending in this thread but my stance really hasn't changed from when I made the thread Is Hydelyn secretly evil? years ago. What she did to Minfilia has/will never sit right with me, hell it has only been made worse due to ShB and I straight up doubt her whenever she does something but I've been sitting here for ages waiting for the "I knew it" to no avail and I've slowly come to expect that the writers would probably have her be benevolent the entire time.

What would've been good to have seen is an ascian go against the other ascians and was put down as this would show that despite being tempered they act freely but since they haven't whereas with Hydelyn we have had 3 instances of people she blessed go against/harm her,
1.Adjora
2.Ysayle
3.Ardbert and co.
This is currently one of the big difference between Zodiark and Hydelyn as primal entities and really why I hate they are primals too, Zodiark by all accounts shown does strip free will away(One true God anyone ) whereas Hydelyn atm with the information we have does not(Though I theorise Minfilia was tempered when she became the voice of the mother but 0 proof there so theory it remains).

[Crushnight]

@Crushnight, there was only 2 tribes the Oronir and the Dotharl that traveled south with Hien to help with the Doman Liberation (well per the EE Volume 2).

Ah ty so we had 3 tribes help with Doma liberation which means every other tribe refused to go which is what 30-40 (ik there were 50 tribes but I don't have book on hand to know which have been absorbed/killed off/fled etc) that is not really forced coercion of the Xeala and definitely leans on the they wanted to side.

[YianKutku]

For Hydaelyn not to have tempered her summoners, even a little, would require she is somehow an exception to the rule.

Shiva never tempered anyone.

(According to the game dialogue it doesn't seem like King Moggle Mog Tempered anyone either, even the Mogglesguard, but I've also always conceded that with Moogles, it's kind of hard to tell.)

Zodiark by all accounts shown does strip free will away(One true God anyone )

As a point of note, someone can believe a being (revealed to be a Primal born from the beliefs of their summoners) to be a god, while not actually being Tempered by that Primal. The Sahagin Priest who summoned Leviathan was definitely not Tempered, but acted just as fanatically as their followers.

So at this point we don't know whether Lahabrea's belief in Zodiark as the One True God is due to his Tempering, or just because he's several Copper Rivets loose in the head.

Ah ty so we had 3 tribes help with Doma liberation which means every other tribe refused to go which is what 30-40 (ik there were 50 tribes but I don't have book on hand to know which have been absorbed/killed off/fled etc) that is not really forced coercion of the Xeala and definitely leans on the they wanted to side.

The Nadaam was frankly a little weird in terms of how important it's supposed to be. Everyone involved in it says that it's incredibly important to show who rules the Steppes, but the three biggest tribes of those Steppes (Adarkim, Jhungid, Kharlu) don't even bother showing up. And we know at least the Adarkim are aware of it, since there's the Khan of the Adarkim hanging around Reunion (and giving you a minor sidequest).

Given the Jhungid and Kharlu are supposed to be in a forever war with each other, one would imagine they'd be interested in a proper match to determine who is the true "winner".

[Cilia]

I would argue the difference of opinion stems from some people being more willing to forgive Hydaelyn for her faults and flaws rather than hold her in contempt for them.

Zodiark may not have been intended as a "wish-granting machine," but the argument against using extant life on the planet to bring back the dead is a sound one - the future belongs to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past.

The Warrior of Light does what they do out of choice, not compulsion from Hydaelyn. The various other chosen of Hydaelyn that turned against her or deviated from what she'd consider acceptable behavior is testament to that - as it is to her not interfering in history beyond what's necessary to prevent those living in the here and now from dying at the hand of the Ascians and/or becoming Zodiark's food.

While there was and still is no explicit reason for the Warrior of Light's raw power sans Hydaelyn's blessing, their status as an inhabitant of the Source means their soul is considerably more dense than those of the shards due to Rejoinings; it gets more dense than the standard Source inhabitant's at the very end of Shadowbringers by merging with Ardbert. On the other hand, the actual explanation for their knack for picking up things so easily and power besides is probably their heavily-implied-to-be Ancient soul. Popular theory is that they are the reincarnation of the missing fourteenth member of the Amaurotine Conclave and/or were part of the group that summoned Hydaelyn; neither of these are confirmed, but it is heavily implied that they were one of Hades' close friends (his short story, his chummy familiarity with the Warrior of Light particularly after rallying the inhabitants of Eulmore to get the lift working again, and his denial in regards to "seeing" the Warrior of Light as an Ancient just before their great battle collectively and strongly suggest if not outright confirm that Hades knew the Warrior of Light's Ancient self).

I'd rather stick to what's known and how it's presented in-story than try to press a narrative that requires twisting and warping those selfsame facts and presentation. I hate forced narratives. I remain leery of Hydaelyn due to the circumstances surrounding Minfilia's transformation into "The Word of the Mother," but if Hythlodaeus' shade is wholly truthful it's difficult to argue that her intentions are anything but benevolent, and the thousands of years she remains inactive do not suggest a desire to control or shape history.

[Elladie]

I would argue the difference of opinion stems from some people being more willing to forgive Hydaelyn for her faults and flaws rather than hold her in contempt for them.

The Warrior of Light does what they do out of choice, not compulsion from Hydaelyn. (snip)

I'd rather stick to what's known and how it's presented in-story than try to press a narrative that requires twisting and warping those selfsame facts and presentation. I hate forced narratives. I remain leery of Hydaelyn due to the circumstances surrounding Minfilia's transformation into "The Word of the Mother," but if Hythlodaeus' shade is wholly truthful it's difficult to argue that her intentions are anything but benevolent, and the thousands of years she remains inactive do not suggest a desire to control or shape history.

To my mind, the problem lies in people making assumptions based on opinions and then insisting that they are facts. That's the kind of post in these threads that always derails them and causes them to get heated. What most of us are doing here is indulging in speculation and what ifs, but then someone comes in and goes 'no, no, you're all wrong, THIS is how it is' and that puts the cat among the pigeons.

Like you, I am wary of Hydaelyn and have been since the Praetorium. The more her story has developed, the more wary I've gotten. I'm very much inclined to think she's a construct with one program only - destroy Zodiark - and everything else is irrelevant. But that is my opinion, it's an opinion based on how I see Hydaelyn's in-game presentation, but it's not set in stone. If things in-game take me down a different path, that's cool, but they will need to be convincing.

People's musings here are just that - musings - so please let's try and be non-confrontational about how we respond to them. Most of us manage that very well, imo, but some individuals seem to want to beat folks over the head with the 'Hydaelyn is the BEST!' hammer

[LineageRazor]

(According to the game dialogue it doesn't seem like King Moggle Mog Tempered anyone either, even the Mogglesguard, but I've also always conceded that with Moogles, it's kind of hard to tell.)

While they never directly came out and said it, I came away from the Moggle Mog quests with the impression that the Mogsguard WERE tempered, and the other Moogles planned to remove them. Probably not kill them; Moogles seem too mild-mannered for that, in general, but quarantine them, at the very least. (And not too effectively, given that they were able to summon Mog EX.) Just my take on things.

The Sahagin Priest who summoned Leviathan was definitely not Tempered, but acted just as fanatically as their followers.

No need to be vague about gender. We know from both the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests, and some Ondo side quests, that surface dwellers rarely or never see Sahagin females. Every Sahagin we meet, including the Priest, is male.

People's musings here are just that - musings - so please let's try and be non-confrontational about how we respond to them. Most of us manage that very well, imo, but some individuals seem to want to beat folks over the head with the 'Hydaelyn is the BEST!' hammer

It's been my impression that the Black Knights are considerably more vocal than the White. And, honestly, they have to be, in order for their suspicions to not be dismissed out of hand. This game practically beats the player over the head in its efforts to depict Hydaelyn as a benevolent, earnest character. All of the "suspicious" behaviors she exhibits? The characters in-game have the same information that we do, and none of them have shown any signs of losing faith in Hydaelyn's goodness. Even Yoshi P is giving the players the side-eye for throwing Hy under the bus at the word of an Ascian, of all people.

The writers seriously do not seem to be trying to paint Hydaelyn as a morally grey character (let alone black). Characters in-game that are considered to be extraordinarily wise, such as Loisouix, believe in her benevolence, and for SE to turn around and pull a "twist" that reveals she's actually full of dark intentions would essentially be painting these characters as fools. I just don't see that as being in the cards.