Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

[Lersayil]

You're trying to state that you're a rationalist.
But after several points shown that people act freely and without guidance from Hydaelyn you're showing a consistent tilt toward putting actions of those associated with her in a bad light. That's called bias.

If you think so, I either worded my posts poorly, or you misunderstood something.

You say "bad light". I say writing mistake, hypocrisy, or genuinely great setup for a moral relativist commentary. The fact that I argue, that something done by the heroes is morally questionable in principle isn't meant as criticism of characters. It might be if they move away from the current narrative, and move back to a black and white morality. But, until we keep rolling with the moral relativism theme, its actually a praise from me, if anything!

The only thing I am biased against really, is the story returning to a more simplistic morality after all this setup.

EDIT: to further break it down, what I am doing, is speculating how a character such as Hydaelyn, that so far has been characterized universally good, can fit into a narrative in which we are pushing, that good and evil is in the details, and in the eye of the beholder.

[LineageRazor]

This may be the other way around. She may be handing out power to people that she knows would follow her agenda. She may not manipulate the individual, but she is manipulating the history of millions by distribution of power. For better or worse, many would take issue with such things.

The power Hydaelyn passes out seems to be completely passive and purely defensive, and ONLY defensive against unnatural elements like Primals and Ascians. Our strength is our own, and Hydaelyn's power only comes into play when entities try to "cheat" by way of Tempering and such. She doesn't always give it to folks who follow her agenda, either. We have two cases to the contrary to consider: Saint Ajora, who summoned Seraph Ultima to the world, and Ysayle, who assisted Nidhogg's horde by summoning a Primal, of all things. Hydaelyn is clearly not all-knowing; she bestows her powers on promising individuals, but there's no guarantee that those individuals will do what she hopes they will do.

She struck the jackpot with the Warrior of Light, of course - but even the WoL frequently runs off to do things that have little or nothing to do with her agenda. Thordan may have consorted with Ascians, but that's not the reason the WoL got involved in the Dragonsong War. The WoL got involved because people were suffering, and the WoL wanted to help out. The Dragonsong War was (to our current knowledge) not influenced by the Ascians, and Thordan's plotting and eventual Primal summoning had no effect on the war at all. It took place after we'd ALREADY WON. Nidhogg was dead, his horde was in disarray, and while Nidhogg eventually resurrected himself through Estinien, Hydaelyn did not ask us to do any of that.

The only way Hydaelyn could be said to be guiding the fate of humankind is that she allows a few champions to keep living when they would normally be tempered or dead, when facing off against opponents empowered by Zodiark, individuals who wish to kill pretty much everyone to advance their goals. Once Zodiark and his allies cease to be a threat, we currently have no evidence that Hydaelyn will continue to interfere, and SOME evidence that she will NOT (e.g., Answers lyrics).

It's also worth noting that the WoL's opposition to the Garleans is not influenced by Hydaelyn. The WoL would be fighting them regardless of whether they were an Ascian puppet empire. In fact, MOST of the the conflict with the Garleans took place well before the WoL had any idea the Garleans were an Ascian puppet empire (and, for that matter, well before the GARLEANS even knew the Garleans were a puppet empire, and most of them STILL don't know). The question is, did HYDAELYN know the Garleans were an Ascian puppet empire? That's unclear; it's likely she knew the Ascians were up to something, but she might not have suspected the Garleans specifically. There's plenty of evidence that Hydaelyn is not all-knowing.

A good question to ask is this: If the WoL had never been granted the Echo/Blessing by Hydaelyn, what would they have done? Very likely, many of the same things. They'd still be a paragon of warriors, fighting the Garlean Empire on behalf of the Eorzean Alliance. The Alliance would likely steer them WELL away from any Primals - it would be disaster if such a warrior was Tempered - and the Primals would be handled by the usual ungodly costly human wave tactics. The Ascians likely wouldn't take any particular interest in the WoL; while a powerful warrior, conflict with Garlemald is a good thing in their eyes, and powerful warriors on both sides is both normal and expected.

[Lersayil]

snip

Good points, I must consent that she doesn't know how a WoL turns out later after she hands out the blessings, as we've already seen some that veered off the path (unless she cant forsee certain kinds of interferences like Ascians, but thats probably reading too much into it).

As for the passiveness of the blessing, are you sure? I sorta-kinda remember it having something to do with our immense aether reserves, but I might be mistaken on that. Aetherial manipulation being what it is, just having that aether pool is a vast power advantage. The echo might also affect our uncanny efficiency with job stones, though I admit this is pure speculation.

Agreed, the Garlean argument kind of hangs on how much Hydaelyn knows about Ascian movements. If she knew they were behind the Empire, she might deliberately hand the blessing to someone in the vicinity that would likely fight them? I guess that would make her speculative instead of manipulative?

And yeah, I kind of agree. The WoL would probably do more or less the same without the echo and blessing, albeit probably less efficiently. Possibly cheering for Arenvald from the sidelines? For arguments sake though, its still technically possible that the echo itself has something to do with the WoLs personality. We are lacking data and what we have is probably biased, but echo holders so far were all in some... active roles so far? Adventurers, Scions, WoLs, Ascians, Leviathan summoning fishmen. Just having the echo might compel the holder to a more "adventurous" life.

What Hydaelyn is doing then, is basically gambling on promising echo users, preferably within range of ascian plots, hoping to tip the scales. Kind of weird though, isn't it? If that is her plan of opposing the Ascians, she wasn't doing a great job of it so far... before the current WoL the Ascians were pretty much on a winning streak. Was she summoned with this plan in mind, or did something go wrong since the Sundering?

[MikkoAkure]

As for the passiveness of the blessing, are you sure? I sorta-kinda remember it having something to do with our immense aether reserves, but I might be mistaken on that. Aetherial manipulation being what it is, just having that aether pool is a vast power advantage. The echo might also affect our uncanny efficiency with job stones, though I admit this is pure speculation.

Shadowbringers muddied this point a bit with the revelation that we are more whole of a pre-sundered person than most people and are souls are more aetherically dense. Even without the benefit of the blessing or echo, we have more going on than everyone else and it’s likely that’s why we were chosen. Plus all the insinuation that we summoned Hydaelyn ourself and that every WoL throughout history and across the multiverse is us, over and over.

This revelation plus Emet admitting that he’s tempered kind of puts a damper on deeper, nuanced meanings to the story and people are citing moral relativism in a story that I believe is more black and white and is leans towards predestined fate.

[Lersayil]

Shadowbringers muddied this point a bit with the revelation that we are more whole of a pre-sundered person than most people and are souls are more aetherically dense. Even without the benefit of the blessing or echo, we have more going on than everyone else and it’s likely that’s why we were chosen. Plus all the insinuation that we summoned Hydaelyn ourself and that every WoL throughout history and across the multiverse is us, over and over.

This revelation plus Emet admitting that he’s tempered kind of puts a damper on deeper, nuanced meanings to the story and people are citing moral relativism in a story that I believe is more black and white and is leans towards predestined fate.

Given the time frame and number of successful calamities, I think its safe to state that even if the current WoL was around in previous eras in some form he / she must not have been very successful at their jobs (lack of shards?). If nothing else, the fact that it took 7-8 rejoinings for our counter-offensive against the Ascians to be successful, makes one question the validity or integrity of the original plan.

Recent revelations do muddy the waters a bit about what makes us special, but as far as we've been told by Y'shtola, post-Ardbert the WoLs soul didn't really change much from their pre-expansion selfs. With our extra shard, we did mend our souls, and got rid of the extra light aether, but other than that she did not note any other major changes (possibly she just cant see the difference?).

Combined with the fact that Emet did mock us for not being able to contain and control the amount of aether we've collected from the Wardens, I would *guess* that our natural aether reserves aren't expanding with rejoinings, only our free storage and ability to manipulate greater amounts.

As for morality, I can see that to be the case, and honestly I kiiind of fear it to be true? We've dabbled a bit in moral relativism with pre-ascian twist Garlean commentary and Heavenswards dragons. Clearly, we've been hitting the notes with ShB. Hell, Emet outright says it that one time. Feels like they are heading in a definitive direction. At this point dancing back into absolute moralities would feel like a 180, or at the very least would undermine some of the previous characters and narrative undertones. Its kind of a one way street once you start going down either way.

[Crushnight]

And to clarify, I have no bias against Hydaelyn or her actions. I'm just untrusting and cynical towards everything in general, until factually proven otherwise (at which point I might just become plain bitter, but thats another question).

I know I've been doing a decent amount of Hydelyn defending in this thread but my stance really hasn't changed from when I made the thread Is Hydelyn secretly evil? years ago. What she did to Minfilia has/will never sit right with me, hell it has only been made worse due to ShB and I straight up doubt her whenever she does something but I've been sitting here for ages waiting for the "I knew it" to no avail and I've slowly come to expect that the writers would probably have her be benevolent the entire time.

What would've been good to have seen is an ascian go against the other ascians and was put down as this would show that despite being tempered they act freely but since they haven't whereas with Hydelyn we have had 3 instances of people she blessed go against/harm her,
1.Adjora
2.Ysayle
3.Ardbert and co.
This is currently one of the big difference between Zodiark and Hydelyn as primal entities and really why I hate they are primals too, Zodiark by all accounts shown does strip free will away(One true God anyone ) whereas Hydelyn atm with the information we have does not(Though I theorise Minfilia was tempered when she became the voice of the mother but 0 proof there so theory it remains).

[Crushnight]

@Crushnight, there was only 2 tribes the Oronir and the Dotharl that traveled south with Hien to help with the Doman Liberation (well per the EE Volume 2).

Ah ty so we had 3 tribes help with Doma liberation which means every other tribe refused to go which is what 30-40 (ik there were 50 tribes but I don't have book on hand to know which have been absorbed/killed off/fled etc) that is not really forced coercion of the Xeala and definitely leans on the they wanted to side.

[Cilia]

I would argue the difference of opinion stems from some people being more willing to forgive Hydaelyn for her faults and flaws rather than hold her in contempt for them.

Zodiark may not have been intended as a "wish-granting machine," but the argument against using extant life on the planet to bring back the dead is a sound one - the future belongs to those living in the here and now, not ghosts of the past.

The Warrior of Light does what they do out of choice, not compulsion from Hydaelyn. The various other chosen of Hydaelyn that turned against her or deviated from what she'd consider acceptable behavior is testament to that - as it is to her not interfering in history beyond what's necessary to prevent those living in the here and now from dying at the hand of the Ascians and/or becoming Zodiark's food.

While there was and still is no explicit reason for the Warrior of Light's raw power sans Hydaelyn's blessing, their status as an inhabitant of the Source means their soul is considerably more dense than those of the shards due to Rejoinings; it gets more dense than the standard Source inhabitant's at the very end of Shadowbringers by merging with Ardbert. On the other hand, the actual explanation for their knack for picking up things so easily and power besides is probably their heavily-implied-to-be Ancient soul. Popular theory is that they are the reincarnation of the missing fourteenth member of the Amaurotine Conclave and/or were part of the group that summoned Hydaelyn; neither of these are confirmed, but it is heavily implied that they were one of Hades' close friends (his short story, his chummy familiarity with the Warrior of Light particularly after rallying the inhabitants of Eulmore to get the lift working again, and his denial in regards to "seeing" the Warrior of Light as an Ancient just before their great battle collectively and strongly suggest if not outright confirm that Hades knew the Warrior of Light's Ancient self).

I'd rather stick to what's known and how it's presented in-story than try to press a narrative that requires twisting and warping those selfsame facts and presentation. I hate forced narratives. I remain leery of Hydaelyn due to the circumstances surrounding Minfilia's transformation into "The Word of the Mother," but if Hythlodaeus' shade is wholly truthful it's difficult to argue that her intentions are anything but benevolent, and the thousands of years she remains inactive do not suggest a desire to control or shape history.

[YianKutku]

For Hydaelyn not to have tempered her summoners, even a little, would require she is somehow an exception to the rule.

Shiva never tempered anyone.

(According to the game dialogue it doesn't seem like King Moggle Mog Tempered anyone either, even the Mogglesguard, but I've also always conceded that with Moogles, it's kind of hard to tell.)

Zodiark by all accounts shown does strip free will away(One true God anyone )

As a point of note, someone can believe a being (revealed to be a Primal born from the beliefs of their summoners) to be a god, while not actually being Tempered by that Primal. The Sahagin Priest who summoned Leviathan was definitely not Tempered, but acted just as fanatically as their followers.

So at this point we don't know whether Lahabrea's belief in Zodiark as the One True God is due to his Tempering, or just because he's several Copper Rivets loose in the head.

Ah ty so we had 3 tribes help with Doma liberation which means every other tribe refused to go which is what 30-40 (ik there were 50 tribes but I don't have book on hand to know which have been absorbed/killed off/fled etc) that is not really forced coercion of the Xeala and definitely leans on the they wanted to side.

The Nadaam was frankly a little weird in terms of how important it's supposed to be. Everyone involved in it says that it's incredibly important to show who rules the Steppes, but the three biggest tribes of those Steppes (Adarkim, Jhungid, Kharlu) don't even bother showing up. And we know at least the Adarkim are aware of it, since there's the Khan of the Adarkim hanging around Reunion (and giving you a minor sidequest).

Given the Jhungid and Kharlu are supposed to be in a forever war with each other, one would imagine they'd be interested in a proper match to determine who is the true "winner".

[Elladie]

I would argue the difference of opinion stems from some people being more willing to forgive Hydaelyn for her faults and flaws rather than hold her in contempt for them.

The Warrior of Light does what they do out of choice, not compulsion from Hydaelyn. (snip)

I'd rather stick to what's known and how it's presented in-story than try to press a narrative that requires twisting and warping those selfsame facts and presentation. I hate forced narratives. I remain leery of Hydaelyn due to the circumstances surrounding Minfilia's transformation into "The Word of the Mother," but if Hythlodaeus' shade is wholly truthful it's difficult to argue that her intentions are anything but benevolent, and the thousands of years she remains inactive do not suggest a desire to control or shape history.

To my mind, the problem lies in people making assumptions based on opinions and then insisting that they are facts. That's the kind of post in these threads that always derails them and causes them to get heated. What most of us are doing here is indulging in speculation and what ifs, but then someone comes in and goes 'no, no, you're all wrong, THIS is how it is' and that puts the cat among the pigeons.

Like you, I am wary of Hydaelyn and have been since the Praetorium. The more her story has developed, the more wary I've gotten. I'm very much inclined to think she's a construct with one program only - destroy Zodiark - and everything else is irrelevant. But that is my opinion, it's an opinion based on how I see Hydaelyn's in-game presentation, but it's not set in stone. If things in-game take me down a different path, that's cool, but they will need to be convincing.

People's musings here are just that - musings - so please let's try and be non-confrontational about how we respond to them. Most of us manage that very well, imo, but some individuals seem to want to beat folks over the head with the 'Hydaelyn is the BEST!' hammer