Healer dps is unfairly boring

[Mavrias]

Garbage argument, your job is to heal primarily, not dps. DPS doesn't HAVE to be complex.

My "primary job" can be handled almost entirely via oGCD healing a majority of the time. So the very least they could do is make my "secondary" job (which fills up the majority of my GCD usage) a bit more engaging.

[Corbeau]

Let me tell you a story of how a healer was once (re-)designed in a certain MMO. It was a melee class with it's damaging abilities intimately tied to it's healing output despite only having 3 DPS buttons and a couple of basic healing spells.

First, it had a long-lasting but weak regen spell that would automatically hop to a wounded party member if it's current target was at full health. The spell had a cooldown, so you could only ever have a limited number of players regenning at a time, but it was nice. Weak, but a nice side bonus - kind of like fairy passive healing. The real key was the regen buff's interplay with other abilities.

The DPS kit was based around three melee "spells": a punch, a roundhouse kick, and... let's call it a drop-kick. The punch did light damage and added a stacking buff, with a cap of 3 copies, that did nothing inherently. The roundhouse kick did decent damage and consumed the aforementioned punch buff to copy itself while restoring mana for each hit landed. The drop-kick was mana-expensive and had a cooldown, but also burst-healed every single player with your regen buff on them.

There was one other, crucial, sublime element: taking a drink. The class had an ability - oGCD, in XIV terms - to take a drink that would buff the next major ability you used. It's important to note that the cooldown (~30 seconds IIRC) was less than the length of the class' regen buff (~45 seconds IIRC). Now, if used before your regen, you could place more copies on more players. If used before your drop-kick, it copied the drop-kick (including the heal).

The play pattern should now be obvious. There were other spells and abilities, including other possible drink buffs, but the core pattern of this build was to deal as much damage as possible while passively maintaining mana and putting out sustained healing. If a damage spike was approaching, you would drink up and buff your regen ~30 seconds in advance and then drink to buff your drop-kick as the damage spike landed. If you didn't drink to the right abilities, or messed up your DPS rotation too poorly, you would use too many inefficient strikes and wind up ineffective - either by putting out too little healing or burning your mana too quickly. It required more forethought than any healer in XIV.

Sadly, it turned out that there was only one bossfight where this build was mathematically strong, at least for my guild. The right and proper way to build and play the class was much less engaging. If this dps-focused healing build had been tuned to be stronger, and therefore something I got to play regularly... well, I probably wouldn't be here. I'd still be fistweaving. Unfortunately, I have learned that XIV healers are even shallower than the boring mistweaver builds that I fled. I'll probably continue playing for a bit, using Bard and/or Black Mage, but I expect to be gone before the next expansion. I am, after all, in no way interested in slamming a single button for the vast majority of my game time.

[Sloprano]

To make this short: As a healer main, I want to have fun healing; not DPSing. I will always be in favor of the devs focusing on the former, which is what I know they are trying to do and trying to get right.

I'm with you on the last part, my everliving and dying wish is for SE to communicate, talk to us, set up testrealms, have a community manager or developer on here sharing their thoughts and ideas, show they take feedback and let us know why these jobs had to go through the wringer instead of just taking an atom bomb to them every expansion, taking off the googles, write down "mixed results" and wait two sodding years in complete silence before dropping another bomb just to see how that turns out. Because this act of asking for more, or the return of, non-boring way to deal damage is not to take precedence over healing, but live side by side, heck, even work together like turning Cards into damage or being able to dump Fey Gauge in an attack or aoe that heals or hurts depending on who it hits.

Talk of DPS options and capabilities was just the topic in this thread, that's not to say I don't miss having the extra dimension of healing that the seperate hotbar and manual Embrace brought and why that is just as important as to bring back the whole Arcanist to Scholar. Being able to direct a slightly weaker Physick at targets even when casting or waiting on gcds was so much fun because I could do it even when healing, mitigating, applying buffs/debuffs, reapplying dots or just dealing damage.

I enjoy trying to perform supportive roles in stressful situations so if for 5.2 they remade every dungeon and overworld mob to be akin to floor 191+, high level Eureka enemies, heal-er checks like having to use more Ressurections as part of a fight than there are swiftcasts and randomling patroling red chocobos in La Noscea spamming meteor then things would be different. But history has shown since ARR they have come up with one philosophy and have shown no interest in doing anything radical and stick with spread out world mobs, auto-attacks tickle, sidestep aoes, aoes hurt but are rarely lethal, drag packs to gate engage boss in circular room. All the opposite of this exists in Eureka and Deep Dungeons, but in very closed-off areas that serve only one purpose. Where are the mining spots, or fishing hangouts, in Eureka where you need to form bodyguard groups to reach them. But I'm diverging.

It's like a cookie cutter they apply over whatever exciting new ideas the designers come up with. They could've expanded on the pet hotbars, making Seraph an actual choice between Eos and Selene and not a copy paste Bahamut-egi with no buildup you press every two minutes, let us utilize the resources of Aetherflows and fancy job gauge they spent more time designing the look of than it's applications for both offense and healing. I'm with you just the act of performing the role could need some energy drinks, but the process of dealing damage is in dire need to resuscitation with jump pads and adrenaline shots to the thigh.

Do you honestly think getting another skill or two to spam is going satiate your need for offense? Do you think another skill or two is going to resolve what is actually going on with healers right now?

Not one or two, and definitly not some to just spam like Ruin, Ruin 2 or AoW. Damage-over-times, damage fields and resource dumps, and several of them!

I don't know of the Mr. Happy video, but I have a hard time accepting that this is the best they can come up with or think is best for the jobs. Reason for that being Scholar existed before 5.0, and 4.0. At that one point in time it had more offensive and support capabilities than they had restorative ones and it worked very well. Take a look at SCH in HW. Restorative or those that help restore skills count eight. For supportive there were seventeen. Then the offensive ones or helped you deal damage elleven. We had more ways to prevent damage and more ways to deal damage than we had ways to restore health. Not only in concept but in execution did this lead a such a fun playstyle where I could help damage with dots which meant put 'em up and then focus on support, there were the manual embrace when it healed closer to Physicks number and was more busy looking for ways to let the party take less damage because I had an easier time doing that than restoring it.

Something to apply, put down or use quickly, definitly not something to spam. Because in that vein, spamming Ruin for one target, Ruin 2 one target while moving or AoW in groups is more detrimental to our healing because in order to feel like Im helping I need to put every GCD to it when I could've just put up the dots and don't worry about them until they started dropping of.

So way back we had BOTH more interesting ways to play the healer and an simple but engaging way to deal damage that worked both in and outside of parties. Seeing as the game and the fights haven't changed one bit but they've only taken stuff away from all these jobs makes it hard to accept they are doing this for out best.

[Gemina]

Well to be fair that's kinda subjective. I used to main sch and I loved stacking my dots and then exploding them with bane, it felt powerful, impactful. I'm sure AoW spam has the numbers but it just feels bad.
Ast on the other hand always had very similar dps tools to whm but then they juggled an interesting but not overwhelming card system, highs and lows made it a fun system to play with. Now the cards feel unimportant something to be tossed about with total disregard for who gets what, the system just feels like busy work, something I'm obligated to do but I dont see a real impact.
And then whm was the only of the three I just didn't like in stormblood it but now everything feels like whm and I'm a red mage now

I've been playing SCH since I received my soulstone 4 years ago. Miasma+Bio+Bane on trash was the closest any healer has had to having a true DPS rotation. Unfortunately, bane became underutilized against bosses, and SCH never got any kind of a Fester. Then there was also the issue of ilv bloat and varied pulls from tanks which resulted in trash mobs melting so fast that the wombo combo of DoTs SCH can dish out wasn't needed, and SCH didn't have a spammable AoE. While your example is a good one, it still exemplifies the ongoing issues with healers and their skills becoming underutilized. In this case it is on the offensive, and the homogenization of DPS skills actually resolved this problem. Yes, I know AoW isn't very satisfying to use.

I won't go into AST cards. That doesn't have much bearing on the topic I am addressing.

[EpicOverlord85]

Garbage argument, your job is to heal primarily, not dps. DPS doesn't HAVE to be complex.

Considering I don’t have to heal all that much to keep everyone alive (when everyone isn’t dropping like flies from eating mechanics) the only other option is too DPS so you’re point is incorrect. When I spend 75% DPSing I’d loved to do more than just 211111111111111121111111111111111111211111111121111-etc.

[Gemina]

it was much more interesting in HW and ARR, with cleric stance and multiple dots and timers to watch. But then those were removed to "encourage" more to play healer with uh, mixed results.

Also, you are wrong on a fundamental level about savage being more scripted than anything else. The only difference is the difficulty of the fights and the intensity of heal and dps checks. People screwing up in copied factory is no more "non-scripted" than people screwing up in e4s.

"Add a little more dots or cd variants for haste/ mp/ etc." Oh, you mean the stuff they took away?

Your arguments are starting to sound more like pissed off little rants than anything else. They didn't remove cleric stance to encourage more players to play the role, it was done because it was a clunky, stupid design that was death sentence for a tank. That along with this "more interesting" DPS skillset for (just SCH mind you) lead to too many healers tunnel visioning on damage, and/or panic healing with CS still up. If you think getting rid of CS actually worsened the state of healers, you couldn't be more wrong.

You're also missing my point. People screwing up in CF is WAY different than screwing up in savage/ultimate. If just you and the tank is up in Savage, what is the probability of still getting a clear without the encounter resetting? As a matter of fact, during your time doing savage, how often would you say encounters fail, or you don't get a clear at all and have to try again later? When was the last time you didn't clear Copied Factory, or any normal mode raid/trial? Starting to see the difference? My point is that it is ok to use GCDs on heals in this content because players are screwing up all the time so it is necessary. In savage, if you're having to use GCDs on heals, something's not right, and the probability of the clear goes down.

I should also correct myself. While I haven't done any relevant savage, I've definitely done them unsynced. Even here if you screw up it's a reset. So I don't know what you're talking about. Copied Factory having any sort of similar script to a savage encounter is as accurate as a broken clock. What the bosses do is scripted, sure. But you just never know who is going to get hit by what, and you may have to go well out of script and support the other alliances.

"Oh, you mean the stuff they took away?"

Sure. If you say so.

[Lastelli]

I've been playing SCH since I received my soulstone 4 years ago. Miasma+Bio+Bane on trash was the closest any healer has had to having a true DPS rotation. Unfortunately, bane became underutilized against bosses, and SCH never got any kind of a Fester.

But SCH also had Shadow Flare and Miasma 2 (for AoE spam and weaving). In 4.x in dungeons you'd do something like this: cast your dots on mobs -> bane -> miasma 2 -> shadow flare -> miasma 2 spam -> dots + bane again if your party dps was low. Currently you do the folloiwing -> AoW spam. ST rotation also used all your dots (including miasma 2).

WHM used to have 3 dots, one of which AoE to be alternated between holy and healing spells. Plus Fluid Aura.

AST was the only one with 1 nuke and 1 dot, but it had to deal with cards every 30 seconds and it had buff time extensions.

Do you really not see how less braindead healer dps was in 4.0 and 3.0? It certainly wasn't complex, but it was much more engaging that it is now.

[Mavrias]

Your arguments are starting to sound more like pissed off little rants than anything else. They didn't remove cleric stance to encourage more players to play the role, it was done because it was a clunky, stupid design that was death sentence for a tank. That along with this "more interesting" DPS skillset for (just SCH mind you) lead to too many healers tunnel visioning on damage, and/or panic healing with CS still up. If you think getting rid of CS actually worsened the state of healers, you couldn't be more wrong.

You're also missing my point. People screwing up in CF is WAY different than screwing up in savage/ultimate. If just you and the tank is up in Savage, what is the probability of still getting a clear without the encounter resetting? As a matter of fact, during your time doing savage, how often would you say encounters fail, or you don't get a clear at all and have to try again later? When was the last time you didn't clear Copied Factory, or any normal mode raid/trial? Starting to see the difference? My point is that it is ok to use GCDs on heals in this content because players are screwing up all the time so it is necessary. In savage, if you're having to use GCDs on heals, something's not right, and the probability of the clear goes down.

I should also correct myself. While I haven't done any relevant savage, I've definitely done them unsynced. Even here if you screw up it's a reset. So I don't know what you're talking about. Copied Factory having any sort of similar script to a savage encounter is as accurate as a broken clock. What the bosses do is scripted, sure. But you just never know who is going to get hit by what, and you may have to go well out of script and support the other alliances.

"Oh, you mean the stuff they took away?"

Sure. If you say so.

Hey man if thats how you feel that's how you feel. Your feelings don't really make my points not arguments.

They absolutely removed cleric stance to encourage more people to play the role. Those who didn't main healers or were new to the role panicked and caused deaths more than anyone. People who played SCH at a higher level didn't tunnel nearly as often as you think. Not to say those people NEVER made mistakes, just that it was a less common occurance.

Me: yeah the difficulty and heal checks are increased in savage but normal modes and other casual content are no less scripted. You have to heal mistakes in savage just like you do in casual content. Savage is simply more punishing about it.

You: [some nonsense about how difficulty makes it hard to recover so somehow people screwing up in alliance raid makes it more random because the encounter doesn't necessarily have to reset in CF].

Examples of skills pruned that are "more dots or some kind of haste" or other buff/debuff: literally every card effect but balance, fey wind, divine seal, eye for an eye, virus, stoneskin, a bunch of dots. Oh, and the slow on shadowflare.

[MushyMusashi]

Healer dps is unfairly boring

Tbf, DPS healing is pretty boring too

[EpicOverlord85]

Tbf, DPS healing is pretty boring too

A DPS isn’t generally healing 75% of the time though.