In Defence of DPS meters.

[Shurrikhan]

And this reply is why they are against it. Your assumption is that someone who is struggling is lazy.

Would you prefer "self-sabotaging"? "Lacking consideration of others' time"? Being new to X content is one thing, being rusty another, and getting PKed something further still, but if you consistently can't even combo appropriately or use CDs by level 80, it's almost always going to be some shade of one of those three. Again, the key here is basic competency by the latest in basic content (e.g. level 80 dungeons), the beginnings specialized competency in the beginnings of specialized content (e.g. level 80 Savage), and a fair bit of specialized competency by the time you join a E4S farm group, for instance.

"Be (relatively) prepared," for short.

The bar isn't high here. If I can perform just fine through mouse-based movement and button-clicking alone while text-chatting with my FC and talking with my roommate and my party being none the wiser to it, it takes some manner of laziness or intentional underperformance to be unable to perform even half that well.

That could be an unwillingness to deal with whatever inhibitions you have that dissuade you from testing yourself through learning (self-sabotaging). That could be an unwillingness to spend effort on principle "because it's just a game" (lacking consideration / laziness). That can be a desire to prioritize other things, and believing that engaging fully with performance means you must be losing out elsewhere (lacking consideration / self-sabotaging). It can be a twisted logic that tells you that if you go fast, you'd be "disrespecting" the content (self-sabotaging). Whatever. But all of that stems from being unwilling to fully engage with what's happening or improve one's performance. Sure, we could break down the minutia, but the labels are generally accurate, even if not superfluously precise.

a) make it just for savage content

b) if no - then at least block savage behind dummy target test, where player need to do perfect rotation with food, melds, potions, ( at lest newcomers will know what button to press and adapt it in actual fight )

a) Then you deny the majority of players a useful self-improvement tool. Believe it or not, we casual players like knowing things, too.

b) That's fair. And one can always do both.

[SweetestLily]

The only people that get the crap end of the stick is the PS4 players in this situation. There's really no logical reason to keep dps meters out of the game at this point when 80 percent of the players I meet have a dps meter up and can see everyone's damage and performance anyway. The argument that it will be used to harrass people is void when PC players can already see the damage but PS4 can't.

[Elladie]

Would you prefer "self-sabotaging"? "Lacking consideration of others' time"? Being new to X content is one thing, being rusty another, and getting PKed something further still, but if you consistently can't even combo appropriately or use CDs by level 80, it's almost always going to be some shade of one of those three.

"Be (relatively) prepared," for short.

The bar isn't high here. If I can perform just fine through mouse-based movement and button-clicking alone while text-chatting with my FC and talking with my roommate and my party being none the wiser to it, it takes some manner of laziness or intentional underperformance to be unable to perform even half that well.

I really don't know what to reply to this.

I am happy for you that you can chat in text and hold a conversation and run a dungeon, but I certainly can't. I am far from lazy, I work hard to learn scripted fights and job rotations. I am aware of my shortcomings - mainly caused by directional dyslexia which means muscle memory takes much longer to build and learning mechanics takes a very long time indeed - and so I play healers mostly since I don't have worry about a rotation so much. I'm not stupid either - I have a masters degree - and I understand tool tips and so on. I also agree that a personal parser is a valuable learning tool. But as long as it remains true that I would be called out as a lazy player and told to 'git gud' and then be accused of having 'fragile feelings' when I give what are valid reasons for my issues, then SE are never going to give those kinds of people the tools to further that behaviour.

As I said in my original post, I'm not denying there are lazy players. Just as there are people who can't be bothered to type proper words and sentences or use proper grammar or express themselves in such a way that their point is clear, concise and not offensive. Both kinds of behaviour are annoying and disrespectful. But so is assuming that laziness or stupidity are always the cause. And attacking someone who responds with 'I'm not lazy, the problem is x,y or z' by saying they have 'fragile feelings' as another poster did is actually pretty outrageous

[FirstnameLastname]

So you are still salty about that? Sounds fragile to me. But what do I know? I don't have a degree in "feelings and how not to hurt them".

[Elladie]

So you are still salty about that? Sounds fragile to me. But what do I know? I don't have a degree in "feelings and how not to hurt them".

So you think it's okay to call someone lazy and tell them to 'git gud' even though they are not in fact lazy and are trying very hard to get good? And then to imply that they must be 'fragile' because you've implied they're a liar?

I mean you really didn't need to say you don't have a degree in feelings and how not to hurt them, it's completely obvious. And I'm not sure how I can be 'still salty' when I haven't been salty previously. I'm assuming salty is some kind of slang for upset? Maybe you should work on your communication and people skills, I guess you've been too lazy to pick those up. But hey, that's real life stuff, that doesn't matter, right?

Oh look, I made unkind assumptions about you based on unfounded preconceived notions I have in my head. How unfair of me.

[Shurrikhan]

So you think it's okay to call someone lazy and tell them to 'git gud' even though they are not in fact lazy and are trying very hard to get good? And then to imply that they must be 'fragile' because you've implied they're a liar?

I mean you really didn't need to say you don't have a degree in feelings and how not to hurt them, it's completely obvious. And I'm not sure how I can be 'still salty' when I haven't been salty previously. I'm assuming salty is some kind of slang for upset? Maybe you should work on your communication and people skills, I guess you've been too lazy to pick those up. But hey, that's real life stuff, that doesn't matter, right?

Oh look, I made unkind assumptions about you based on unfounded preconceived notions I have in my head. How unfair of me.

People trying to get good don't tell you to "<expletive> off" the moment you try to give helpful advice.
People trying to get good don't afk mid-fight.
People trying to get good at least understand the basics of the abilities they had more than 20 levels ago.
People trying to get good at least make use of their toolkit.
People trying to get good at least try to understand how they might, generally speaking, save time or further learn to improve their performance.
People trying to get good at least try once or twice to trust their party when they tell them they can survive if they just use their cooldowns and either AoE or spam heals on the tank and give it a shot before arguing that their say should trump that of their party.

That's the level of competency generally expected from the vast majority of content played in this game. If they were in fact "trying to get good", you'd see far, far fewer people take any issue with them. Again, it's not a high bar.

I've met people trying to get good. They're generally among the most fun runs I get, even if they take longer, because it feels like something was really accomplished and I got to be social for once. But this is not that.

[Fellgon]

Just as there are people who can't be bothered to type proper words and sentences or use proper grammar or express themselves in such a way that their point is clear,

I undestand english, but im not good enouth to create an argument, that can be writen in 1 or more paragraph. So i can write short answers.

[Paidhi]

This 'argument' has been reurgitated a gazillion times and it's honestly one of the most ridiculous dimwitted things I've heard on this forum. Which says a lot, actually.

It is an argument, as correct or ridiculously dimwitted as yours.

[Paidhi]

People trying to get good don't tell you to "<expletive> off" the moment you try to give helpful advice.
People trying to get good don't afk mid-fight.
People trying to get good at least understand the basics of the abilities they had more than 20 levels ago.
People trying to get good at least make use of their toolkit.
People trying to get good at least try to understand how they might, generally speaking, save time or further learn to improve their performance.
People trying to get good at least try once or twice to trust their party when they tell them they can survive if they just use their cooldowns and either AoE or spam heals on the tank and give it a shot before arguing that their say should trump that of their party.

That's the level of competency generally expected from the vast majority of content played in this game. If they were in fact "trying to get good", you'd see far, far fewer people take any issue with them. Again, it's not a high bar.

I've met people trying to get good. They're generally among the most fun runs I get, even if they take longer, because it feels like something was really accomplished and I got to be social for once. But this is not that.

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

[ReiMakoto]

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

Thats a mischaracterisation, the thread got to here because we were saying dps meters would unmask the large amount of lazy players, i.e. clearly putting in minimum effort and don't listen to any advice given to them. You can be bad and still be trying by listening to advice and trying to implement it and thats fine, dps meters wouldnt change that.