In Defence of DPS meters.

[Angus-Beef]

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

There are actually more social negatives if people can't figure out whos underperforming leading to more toxicity and blaming and shaming people randomly.

[Shurrikhan]

There are actually more social negatives if people can't figure out whos underperforming leading to more toxicity and blaming and shaming people randomly.

This. It's far, far higher in XIV than in the majority of games that have ubiquitous parsing.

There's no point in telling a guy, "You know you're doing half the dps the other damage-dealers are doing, right?" when everyone has those same numbers. Where parsing is ubiquitous, the conversation efficiently skips that step. Instead, people switch to observation. We check to see if they seem merely distracted or to find out what's going wrong, or at worst just run a quick verbal check before whatever time we'd need full performance on and with time enough to correct the problems seen (e.g. your Fire Mage using Fire Blast on cooldown instead of only on Heating Up or whatever common knowledge issue others might be able to easily fix).

[Shurrikhan]

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

The sad truth is, suspicion tends to make people act far worse to each other than actually knowing, perhaps doubly so if there's a chance suspicion would fall on themselves and triply so when they, themselves, are worried they might be to blame.

[Nyxn607]

Look it comes down to this. The developers have stayed firm with their stance on the dps meters. They will not put one into the game. If you want one, either take the risk of being banned (unlikely unless you bash someone with one) by using a third party program, or don't.

[Angus-Beef]

It seems from all the other MMOs I've played FF is the only current major MMO on the market where a fair amount of the player base seems to struggle with competency. From WoW, to ESO, to GW2, people seem to be able to take the 5 min needed to learn their class and read the tool tips more often then not.

That being said Third party or not, people will always be idiots when it comes down to these things. Removing the use of ACT outright will change nothing, Adding one will change nothing. As hard or as messed up as it sounds, people that seem to always be on the bad end of parsing situation should learn to play their job and the game as everyone else who currently plays and clears endgame has if they want to participate in end game anything really.

lets say we give Timmy an ingame SE sanctioned dps meter, that doesnt stop Timmy from not knowing his rotation and not wanting to change that and self improve. Timmy doesn't care about that and thinks hes fine, the people in the group my be willing to tolerate him if hes doing okish, and if hes not he'll be removed. The same if said people are using third party parsers. The issue is not application based its community based.

When you look at WoW, we have Recount, Details, Skada Damage Meter, all filled with all the essential things needed for a raider to see whos doing what needs to be done for a potential clear. When someone wants to bash or mistreat players they're reported, they are suspended or banned, problem solved.

The tool is never at fault because it can only tell facts, what you do with those facts is the issue, People NEED to be willing to improve within FFs community, removing or adding a meter will change nothing so long as this remains the issue.

[Paidhi]

It seems from all the other MMOs I've played FF is the only current major MMO on the market where a fair amount of the player base seems to struggle with competency. From WoW, to ESO, to GW2, people seem to be able to take the 5 min needed to learn their class and read the tool tips more often then not.

That being said Third party or not, people will always be idiots when it comes down to these things. Removing the use of ACT outright will change nothing, Adding one will change nothing. As hard or as messed up as it sounds, people that seem to always be on the bad end of parsing situation should learn to play their job and the game as everyone else who currently plays and clears endgame has if they want to participate in end game anything really.

lets say we give Timmy an ingame SE sanctioned dps meter, that doesnt stop Timmy from not knowing his rotation and not wanting to change that and self improve. Timmy doesn't care about that and thinks hes fine, the people in the group my be willing to tolerate him if hes doing okish, and if hes not he'll be removed. The same if said people are using third party parsers. The issue is not application based its community based.

When you look at WoW, we have Recount, Details, Skada Damage Meter, all filled with all the essential things needed for a raider to see whos doing what needs to be done for a potential clear. When someone wants to bash or mistreat players they're reported, they are suspended or banned, problem solved.

The tool is never at fault because it can only tell facts, what you do with those facts is the issue, People NEED to be willing to improve within FFs community, removing or adding a meter will change nothing so long as this remains the issue.

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

[ReiMakoto]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

People already ask for buffs and nerfs based on the 3rd party information that we already have so nothing changes there. Also I disagree to an extent, this is a multiplayer game, there comes a time when how you want to play the game clashes with the other 3 people in a dungeon and especially in a game as rigid as ffxiv wanting to be freestyle or play your own way will almost always mean youre dragging down other people, and honestly I think its inherently selfish to not know what youre doing and "play your own way" at the detriment of other players.

[Paidhi]

I think its inherently selfish to not know what youre doing and "play your own way" at the detriment of other players.

Don't play with them then, you are not forced to do so. And you are assuming that detrimental = bad performance. I personally prefer healing a decent tank with a good attitude, than an imba tank who is a jerk.

[ForteNightshade]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

It is also my time and subscription. And when it comes to Savage their lackluster perform can be a liability. Why am I obligated to compensate for someone who isn't considerate enough to care about anyone else's time but their own? As for flooding the forums. Have you looked at the job section? That's typically what people talk about there; jobs being either underpowered or disliking the design choices made. A personal DPS wouldn't have any impact on that save to give players a more accurate assessment of their jobs capability. Why is having more information a bad thing? Coincidentally, FFlogs is more or less accurate regardless. So once again, this already exists.

And more than half the growing raid community uses third party tools the devs look the other way about. Meanwhile, other players who genuinely want to improve or simply have no idea they're doing anything wrong, thus wonder why they might be kicked from a PF either get these same third party tools or don't even know they exist. SE's stance is to keep everyone in the dark and hope it works. It hasn't.

[Paidhi]

It is also my time and subscription. And when it comes to Savage their lackluster perform can be a liability. Why am I obligated to compensate for someone who isn't considerate enough to care about anyone else's time but their own? As for flooding the forums. Have you looked at the job section? That's typically what people talk about there; jobs being either underpowered or disliking the design choices made. A personal DPS wouldn't have any impact on that save to give players a more accurate assessment of their jobs capability. Why is having more information a bad thing? Coincidentally, FFlogs is more or less accurate regardless. So once again, this already exists.

And more than half the growing raid community uses third party tools the devs look the other way about. Meanwhile, other players who genuinely want to improve or simply have no idea they're doing anything wrong, thus wonder why they might be kicked from a PF either get these same third party tools or don't even know they exist. SE's stance is to keep everyone in the dark and hope it works. It hasn't.

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".