Revenge of the Weapons (5.2 and Onwards)

[TheMightyMollusk]

Stranger still, Sharlayan also clearly resorts to all sorts of weird and dubious magical experiments yet they're never called out in the same way that Garlemald is.

Sharlayan isn't actively pursuing a war of conquest against the rest of the planet.

[Theodric]

Sharlayan isn't actively pursuing a war of conquest against the rest of the planet.

Neither is Garlemald at this point - though a war of conquest, with sympathetic and complex reasons - can make for a satisfying narrative. One that, unfortunately, isn't really explored particularly well in this game due to how safe it opts to play things.

If the game embraced more realism, it'd show tensions between Hingashi and Eorzea/Sharlayan fracturing as a consequence of both seeking to start a trade war by using the Isle of Val as a base of operation to get around Kugane's tariffs (which go a long way towards funding the nation's livelihood).

Though as usual, anything shady that the protagonists do is conveniently ignored and brushed under the rug - never to be mentioned again or be of any meaningful consequence.

[Bright-Flower]

I doubt we'll see Omega Weapon, unless it's as another Ultimate fight. I actually thought the Ultima WEapon ultimate fight might bring in Omega Weapon because Omega Weapon is usually just a palatte swap of whatever Ultima Weapon is in a game. (Note: Omega, the spider robot, and Omega WEAPON, a buffed superboss version of Ultima Weapon, are not the same thing.)

I think Ruby Emerald and Diamond are the most likely, with maybe others in via dungeons. Assuming this is largely a FFVII fanservice story, I assume it'll be weapons fought in FFVII, which would include Ultima (already destroyed in XIV), Diamond, Ruby and Emerald. (The latter two as superbosses after the game's initial japanese release.)

Neither is Garlemald at this point - though a war of conquest, with sympathetic and complex reasons - can make for a satisfying narrative. One that, unfortunately, isn't really explored particularly well in this game due to how safe it opts to play things.

If the game embraced more realism, it'd show tensions between Hingashi and Eorzea/Sharlayan fracturing as a consequence of both seeking to start a trade war by using the Isle of Val as a base of operation to get around Kugane's tariffs (which go a long way towards funding the nation's livelihood).

It only isn't right now because the emperor was assasinated and the chemical weapon the empire was preparing destroyed and now it's in a civil war, and could just as easily resume once someone consolidates power again. It's not like the empire had a change of heart. Zenos just threw a wrench into the gears, for his own selfish purposes even.

[Theodric]

It only isn't right now because the emperor was assasinated and the chemical weapon the empire was preparing destroyed and now it's in a civil war, and could just as easily resume once someone consolidates power again. It's not like the empire had a change of heart. Zenos just threw a wrench into the gears, for his own selfish purposes even.

The use of a chemical weapon was to avoid excessive losses among a force that is incapable of using aether. The protagonists can paint it as a 'horrific' approach to warfare but conveniently it does no such thing when it comes to other traumatic methods of death such as blasting people with fireballs, running them through with swords, afflicting opponents with magical diseases or drowning/crushing them with water and debris as we saw with the fall of Doma Castle.

The use of Black Rose was a sound enough move and the real complication lay in the unintended side effects in the form of a Calamity. The weapon was also only used in response to Garlemald itself being invaded and in an alternative universe at that, so...

It's not even necessarily Varis who would opt to use it since apparently that universe still exists based on the Exarch's continued existence.

Either way, the entire plot felt rather contrived and messy. I wouldn't be surprised if it was wrapped up very quickly to justify diving right into Shadowbringers.

[Bright-Flower]

The use of a chemical weapon was to avoid excessive losses among a force that is incapable of using aether. The protagonists can paint it as a 'horrific' approach to warfare but conveniently it does no such thing when it comes to other traumatic methods of death such as blasting people with fireballs, running them through with swords, afflicting opponents with magical diseases or drowning/crushing them with water and debris as we saw with the fall of Doma Castle.

The use of Black Rose was a sound enough move and the real complication lay in the unintended side effects in the form of a Calamity. The weapon was also only used in response to Garlemald itself being invaded and in an alternative universe at that, so...

It's not even necessarily Varis who would opt to use it since apparently that universe still exists based on the Exarch's continued existence.

Either way, the entire plot felt rather contrived and messy. I wouldn't be surprised if it was wrapped up very quickly to justify diving right into Shadowbringers.

'Unintneded side effects?' The calamity was intended. Even Varis is on board with the calamities as shown in the parlay scene with him. He knew about them. The empire was made as a tool to bring about calamities by the ascians, and has been waging wars of conquest to help facilitate them. And while your average garlean doesn't know about acian angle, they're still waging wars of agression all over the world. If Garlemald was invaded in the bad future it would be in retaliation of its constant warmongering, Garlemald is NOT the victim in any such scenario. Even the public reasoning for their war is revealed to be an outright lie in SB's latter patches, one that didn't take all that much thought to punch holes in once the characters thought about it critically.

[Theodric]

'Unintneded side effects?' The calamity was intended. Even Varis is on board with the calamities as shown in the parlay scene with him. He knew about them. The empire was made as a tool to bring about calamities by the ascians, and has been waging wars of conquest to help facilitate them. And while your average garlean doesn't know about acian angle, they're still waging wars of agression all over the world. If Garlemald was invaded in the bad future it would be in retaliation of its constant warmongering, Garlemald is NOT the victim in any such scenario. Even the public reasoning for their war is revealed to be an outright lie in SB's latter patches, one that didn't take all that much thought to punch holes in once the characters thought about it critically.

Garlemald is absolutely the victim. They've been manipulated by Ascian scheming, though putting that aside their people have the inability to manipulate aether and were almost wiped out as a consequence of being driven out of fertile lands and into a bleak, harsh wasteland. It was only the presence of ceruleum that prevented their extinction - and with a nudge, they began to conquer and begin claiming more territory for themselves.

That doesn't excuse everything they've done, though it's hardly a black and white affair - and the only territories they treated with extreme prejudice where those that sought to rebel. In Ala Mhigo's case, its people were happy to try and conquer themselves until they encountered a foe they couldn't beat.

It was just a mess and, IMO, poorly written and rushed. I'm still not a huge fan of the time travel mechanic they used, either.

It's rarely handled well in general and is often just a tool to present 'danger' that amounts to nothing in the end. I've said this before, though the game goes to great lengths to have everything wrap up in a neat little bow of convenience for the protagonists at pretty much every point. A few minor characters are sacrificed now and then but there's rarely any lasting consequences. Meanwhile the antagonists tend to have a more compelling struggle with depth and tough decisions to be made, without the plot device that is the Warrior of Light to solve all their issues for them.

[Bright-Flower]

Garlemald is absolutely the victim. They've been manipulated by Ascian scheming, though putting that aside their people have the inability to manipulate aether and were almost wiped out as a consequence of being driven out of fertile lands and into a bleak, harsh wasteland. It was only the presence of ceruleum that prevented their extinction - and with a nudge, they began to conquer and begin claiming more territory for themselves.

That doesn't excuse everything they've done, though it's hardly a black and white affair - and the only territories they treated with extreme prejudice where those that sought to rebel. In Ala Mhigo's case, its people were happy to try and conquer themselves until they encountered a foe they couldn't beat.

For Ala Mhigo, who did they invade in the last century? If you're talking about the Autumn War, that was over 100 years ago, and since then ala mhigo had lived in peace with the rest of Eorzea until the mad king came along, who they deposed themselves only to be conquored by the empire while weakened.

For the empire, sure they have a sad story where they were wronged in the past. And if the empire had reclaimed its old lands with its technology and stopped there, maybe that would be one thing. Instead, they go after lands that never belonged to them expanding wherever they can. 'We'll only treat you badly if you rebel' hardly excuses anything, and treating the people you conqueror with cruelty only incites MORE rebellion anyway. We've seen three provinces with a history of rebelling, with more implied to have resistance forces evne if we haven't seen them rebel directly. (Gyr Abania, Doma, Dalmasca with the first two winning free and the third one being crushed. And we know other provinces have resistances like Nagxia .) Any examples of good garlean rule are vastly overshadowed by negative ones. And even if all of the provinces had been treated well. 'we'll be nice to you if you play ball after we took your lands and sent many of your able bodied youth off to war in other provinces as conscripts' doesn't exactly justify the invasions after the fact anyway.

[WrenElessedil]

The use of a chemical weapon was to avoid excessive losses among a force that is incapable of using aether. The protagonists can paint it as a 'horrific' approach to warfare but conveniently it does no such thing when it comes to other traumatic methods of death such as blasting people with fireballs, running them through with swords, afflicting opponents with magical diseases or drowning/crushing them with water and debris as we saw with the fall of Doma Castle.

Black Rose doesn't just kill, though- it stills aether (presumably similar to excessive light aether on the first). This would mean that the aether can't even return to the lifestream, and that does make it a much more horrific approach to warfare.

[Lauront]

Black Rose doesn't just kill, though- it stills aether (presumably similar to excessive light aether on the first). This would mean that the aether can't even return to the lifestream, and that does make it a much more horrific approach to warfare.

Makes me wonder if Holy or light more generally does much the same.

[Avidria]

I dunno anything about any of those weapons, but I would enjoy more of Gaius.

The use of a chemical weapon was to avoid excessive losses among a force that is incapable of using aether. The protagonists can paint it as a 'horrific' approach to warfare but conveniently it does no such thing when it comes to other traumatic methods of death such as blasting people with fireballs, running them through with swords, afflicting opponents with magical diseases or drowning/crushing them with water and debris as we saw with the fall of Doma Castle.

The use of Black Rose was a sound enough move and the real complication lay in the unintended side effects in the form of a Calamity. The weapon was also only used in response to Garlemald itself being invaded and in an alternative universe at that, so...

I've got a couple thoughts on this, that kinda split apart here, but... I don't see Black Rose on the same level as the kind of warfare Eorzea and Garlemald are usually stuck in the middle of. War is ugly in itself, whether you're shooting someone or blasting them with magical fire. What's horrific about Black Rose, imo, is that it's a large scale aetheric weapon that kills indiscriminately - if it got used on a battlefield, it would kill everyone regardless of what side they're on. I'm not sure how far its effects would go on non-humanoid life without the boost from the rejoining, but it probably still would've been pretty bad for more than just the people. With or without the influx of light from the first, it still had the potential to be devastating, and in the wrong hands, catastrophic even if not on a cataclysmic scale.

As for magical diseases being used in warfare, I definitely don't see how the narrative paints that as anything but horrific. What was done to Sil'dih was monstrous, and what happened in Nym was horrific. The people making decisions in Ul'dah and Mhach of their time were both guilty of committing atrocities. Magic wasn't seen in a good light after what some of those fallen civilizations did for very good reason.

Also, I didn't think Garlemald itself actually got invaded - unless I missed that? I thought they were just being pushed back - pushed back from their own invasion, no less.

I am curious, though, to go back a ways... what experiments were the Sharlayans doing, and where do we learn about them? I honestly don't remember much about them other than what we see in the AST questline. <.<